Thank you, thank you, thank you. You have articulated so many things that I thought and felt during the season and my disappointment and frustration with the reaction that seemed to me to be predisposed by people who seemingly wanted to dump on the show no matter what.  Over the top hate has been part of the game from the beginning. Even the first game that was much more positively received drew the usual haters when the DLC and the "kiss" became a flashpoint for those looking to start a fire. The current complaints about the change in Abby's physicality struck me as truly ironic when I remember the original reaction to Abby as being too physically developed for a woman to be believed. I feel like those who originally said her physique took them out of the game are now the same people complain her lack of an abundance of muscle is taking them out of the show.The only thing taking them out of the show is their determination to demand a one to one recreation of the game which even if that was done would still not give them the active experience of playing the game which is what they really want but will never get from a passive medium.
I hesitate to say certain things were better only because the word better seems to spur arguments. I will say I enjoyed the way they expanded on both the characters and the world. Things have been plotted out in a way that makes more sense because we understand character motivations better. Game Jesse just shows up in Seattle because he wouldn't let his friends do this alone. So then why didn't he go with them in the first place? In the game he wasn't as important to Jackson's security and was never mentioned as being a successor to Maria.  He and Tommy going out to bring back two teenagers who are definitely going to be in over their heads makes so much more sense than these same teenagers being sent to save Tommy.
What was impressive was how just changing the role of Tommy to Dina being a witness to Joel's fate lead to so many other things. We get a better sense of Tommy's importance to Jackson because of the infected horde attack. His not going immediately after Joel's killers makes so much sense given the more emotional complexity and depth that show Tommy has. Tommy would not abandon his family and community in a mad dash for revenge. The horde attack lets us see that even as impressive and seemingly prepared Jackson is it is still very vulnerable. Ellie is not the only person who has experienced loss and tragedy. We see the contrast between others in the community who want to deal with loss by rebuilding and healing and Ellie who only wants to kill Abby and her friends. The community mourns the loss of Joel but they see the importance of taking care of those still alive rather than avenging the dead. The whole town hall meeting was a highlight. After that speech Ellie made for justice that was so not what she really believed but was so well thought out and delivered makes any claims that season 2 Ellie is portrayed and written as stupid sound like the person making it couldn't have watched the show. Craig Mazin said that one of the yes votes that Ellie got was from Maria because as a former DA the appeal to justice moved her. I noticed when Maria announced the beginning of voting she said it was for sending a dozen people out to find Joel's murderers and "execute" them, a very legal way of saying kill.
The way that everything that takes place from the time Ellie is brought to the hospital to when Tommy and Jesse find Ellie at the Aquarium could be argued to have been shaped by that one change from Tommy to Dina being with Joel when the consequences of his decision caught up with him. I can only imagine the kind of deep dive and discussion that went on when writing this season. No matter what people think of the outcome they cannot make comments that deny the intelligence, dedication and love for this story that went into creating this show.

In my opinion so much subtlety was lost in the show. It felt like the themes and everything else was so over explained. I guess it’s to make sure all audiences can more easily pick up on them, but the game was much more subtle and intentional.

I agree that the gameplay kills aren't canonically necessary for the plot, but taking away Ellie's skillset for tracking, etc and thereby (imo) her implied critical thinking skills was a mistake and is what draws a lot of the criticism from the audience about ellie's capabilities. I think there were simple fixes, like maybe a 10 second shot of her fiddling with the theater generator before going to Dina. I agree it doesn't mean her character is stupid, but in combination with that added emphasis on her brashness, it makes show Ellie feel like an infantilized version of game Ellie, kills aside.

preface, Part 2 is my favourite game of all time and Ellie is my favourite character of all time

I think my main issue is that Ellie’s spiral down into her own personal hell is not shown as well or feel as deserved for the character. There’s all these moments and lines of dialogue in the game leading up to her confrontation with Nora that hint at the growing obsession within Ellie and the isolation she is creating from those around her. By time you descend into the hospital - Ellie too has descended far along the path to being in the same state Abby was at the start of Part 2. The absence of these in the show really made me feel that the obsession and violence that manifests when she leaves Dina and Jessie to go after Nora comes out of nowhere. Moments like her lashing out at Dina and calling her a burden showcase this, but are changed or missing in the show to her journey’s detriment.

I think that expecting show Ellie to be a more proficient fighter is not unwarranted and think the main evidence for this is the journey across Seattle itself. Yes, there are only 8 canon kills in the game and I’m not advocating for Ellie to have gone full John Wick on the city, but the mindset and drive need to cross an active warzone spanning an entire city is a core part of what makes Ellie who she is in Part 2. Ellie can cross the city by using stealth and avoiding conflict in the game, and demonstrates the ability to do so - but in the show this awareness is lacking, an example being where Dina has to remind her to not make noise on Day 2. We’re also shown at the start of the season that Ellie is a capable hand to hand fighter, her smaller size and lesser strength being compensated for by agility and savageness. Yet there are not really any examples of her using this to overcome obstacles - save the encounter at the TV station.

I’m also not a huge fan of having Jessie save Ellie instead of it being the other way around. In game this demonstrates how proficient Ellie is at navigating the Seattle warzone, whereas in the show both Ellie and Dina are reduced to damsels that must be saved by a big, strong, and proficient man. On a side note I feel that turning Jessie into much more of an unfeeling macho man compared to his portrayal in game was also not a great choice.

Getting away from the characterisation of Ellie, I think other aspects of season 2 - and season 1 - also impact the story in negative ways. The costuming does take you out of the show a bit, everything is too clean and well groomed for the situation they find themselves in. Done hair, clean clothes, fresh and neat makeup - all of these could have their place in the world if TLOU, within the bounds of Jackson for example. But there is no real way characters would look how they do after weeks on the road/fighting a continual war within a ruined city scape. If TWD can get this right over a decade ago, why can’t a huge budget HBO production? The short number of episodes, and runtime also don’t help as 15 hours of story has to be crammed into barely 7.  

Infected continue to be miss-used. Yes, I loved the spectacle of the Battle of Jackson, but I really don’t think that it was the place to concentrate them. Part of the peril of the world of TLOU comes from the ever present threat of infected - particularly in urban areas - and this has been lacking in both seasons. An example of where I think the perfect place to show this would be where her and Jessie hide in the parking garage from Serpahites on day 3. Having even one runner appear here would’ve been great to show the constant vigilance required. A trapped infected or several - think Boris’s victims Day 2 or toilet runner Day 1 - would’ve also been a great addition in any of the days. As Dina put it - “How do they get inside these places”.

I could go on picking away at the season but tbh I’m just disappointed. I also dislike changes made to Joel’s, Abby’s, Dina’s stories/characters  - although there is plenty I think was done better in the show, both characters and plot points - but they don’t bug me in the same way as Ellie due to my attachment to who she is and the journey she takes in Part 2.

I hope Abby’s story and character dont feel as truncated in season 3 as Ellie did in season 2. The little we saw of her in season 2 I mostly enjoyed, I’m just worried at this point :/

It is fair and true to say we as fans do not know these characters as well as the creators. But when you compare the way characters - partially the female ones - are written in the show compared to the game they really feel much less complex. Halley and Neil wrote these characters and created story beats how they did in the game for a reason. Yes, changes have to be made when adapting to television, but plenty of missing/changed things had no real reason to be the way they’re.

Fundamentally show Ellie and game Ellie are different characters - the same as game Joel/Abby etc are different to show Joel/Abby. But I really do feel most of these changes made to everyone was for the worst and it saddens me that to the majority of the world the show characterisation and story beats will be what is remembered.

It also feels kinda unfair of you to lump criticism about season 2 from “people who supposedly loved the game” as the same kind of hate filled crap that was sprouted from people like those who infest the TLOU2 subreddit :/

If you’ve stuck with me to the end of this rant I appreciate it haha. Fundamentally, I’m glad you enjoyed the season even if I didn’t and I’m looking forward to your videos breaking down the various episodes :)

Nobody would ever accuse ShowEllie of being "too somber or morose" & nobody would ever accuse GameEllie of being a brat, despite being brash and reckless. And that kinda says it all, imo.

I think my problem with ellie's character this season is HOW she's portratyed

There are a lot of jokes in the show that frame Ellie like a buffoon. The Tank hatch, the way she fixes the lights in the theater, "Im gonna be a dad", like they give off the air of a dopey comic relief character and while none of those things are out of character the structure and way the jokes are told really doesnt do her any favors.

I've been needing to rewatch season 2 for a while now to cement my thoughts more concretely but I do err on the side of ellie being done dirty.

EDIT: Also, I feel like Craig and Neil have two different concepts of who Ellie is as a character  and those two perspectives are clashing in the show constantly. Craig seems to view her as someone obsessed with power and violence (According to the podcasts) and Neil seems to view her as someone struggling with power and violence, and I think those are two entirely different perspectives that conflict with each other.

I agree with the comments about the music, I remember in the game there were moments where silence or near silence added to the anxiety of the situation and I think those moments were dulled because of all the music.
I will say one thing I wish there was in the season was a longer sequence when ellie encounters the seraphites, I remember that part of the game and how terrifying it was and I would have loved a longer scene showing ellie sneaking past them with near discoveries while listening to them before finding and getting to the hospital.

While I definitely agree with you that "kills outside of cinematics are not canon", I do still find it a bit disappointing that Ellie isn't given many opportunities to shine on her own merit in the show.  I don't expect her to be a superhero like she is in the games.  I didn't expect Joel to be one in season one either.  But I think season one did a great job toeing that line- Joel wasn't superhuman and they "nerfed" him in a few explicit ways (which was fine), but they still depicted him as very dangerous and effective.  They could have done this with Ellie too- but at times it really felt like she was carried from scene to scene by Dina and Jesse.  As an example, I wasn't wild about the switcheroo where Jesse saves her when she's in a jam in the subway.  In the game it's Jesse who is pinned down in a bad spot and Ellie finds him. After that, they work together to get themselves out of the situation.  I wanted more moments like that in the show.

Nonetheless, I look forward to your thoughts on these later episodes and am open to having my mind changed- I hope you choose to review the entirety of the season- I enjoy your commentaries.

Part II took risks, over and over again. In fact it's a game made almost entirely out of risk, itself. I didn't want the series to copy the story from Part II, beat for beat; as you mentioned, that simply wouldn't have worked.

But I did want it to take some risks. What we got instead was a TV show so safe that people who'd never played the games didn't have any big feelings about it at all. I talked so many people who couldn't even remember what happened in it. In fact the show feels to me like that's exactly what they were going for: safe, free of controversy, nothing that would get stuck in anyone's teeth either for good or bad. You mentioned yourself in the video that they basically admitted they made changes to avoid backlash to the actress playing Abby.

Without risk, it was just another show about zombies.

My issue is that show Ellie is too likable. “Well you’re a burden now, aren’t you?” Show Ellie never even comes close to that. Game Ellie is a flawed, even horrible person who was massively sanitized for the show.

Mazin has said that he and Neil discussed a lot how many episodes Season.2 should be and they settled on 7, it was not a network decision. I still think they should have adapted the entire thing into a season, and have it be 16 episodes long. You can do a three-month break in the middle or something

My issue with Ellie in this season was that Craig is still writing her as a fumbling 14y/o, when, by the end of TLOU 1, specifically after David, her character has an intentional shift that I just don't see as having continued into season 2. She still has her moments of childlike brightness after David, (the giraffe scene, for instance), but she's altogether much more guarded and serious. She's hardened, taking on Joel's detachment as a coping mechanism and keeping herself kind of on the outskirts when she arrives at Jackson. The only person she's really open and carefree with at all is Joel. Even Dina is kept at arm's length, and it only barely improves after they actually get together.
Game/S01Ellie is suspicious of unfamiliar people; she has an IRONCLAD bullshit detector (seriously, not once does anyone successfully lie to Ellie without her clocking it, even if she goes along with it); and more importantly, she IS a hardened fighter. She makes impulsive decisions, but that doesn't mean that they're bad decisions ALL of the time.
Show Ellie still behaves like she did in season 1, pre-David. She's still that fumbling 14y/o, and often she's treated as a buffoon in situations she should have been the most capable one. There is no reason Dina should be consistently portrayed as the more capable and competent of the two when Ellie has so much experience under her belt. Game Ellie and Season 1 Ellie are smart. Season 2 Ellie is not, and I don't think it's a bad faith argument at all to point it out.

32:43 "You'll never hear me say 'So and so would never do or say that' - instead, I will always ask, 'Why would so and so do or say that? What circumstances could push them to that response?' This keeps things much more open and positive, encourages discussion rather than vitriol, and does away with the notion that I as a fan of these games know more than their creators about who these characters are."

Say we follow your suggestion, and frame it as a question, rather than a statement. Instead of "So and so would never do that", we ask, "Why did so and so do that?" Instead of "x change seems worse than the game", we ask, "Why did they make x change? How does it change the story, for better or worse?"

What happens when, for a large and vocal subset of the audience, most of the answers to those questions are not satisfactory when compared to the original version of the story? What happens when nearly all of the answers given so far have been disappointing and frustrating for a surprisingly high proportion of people who watched the second season?

While an unfortunately high number of people did come out swinging with bad faith sentiment and outright vitriol toward the show and the people who worked on it (and you were, and still are, right for calling that out), it should be clear from your comments sections alone that not all harsh critics of the show did that. Many, many people arrived at harsh negative reception of the show AFTER doing the very thing you're calling for - trying to be curious, giving the show a chance to win them over, only to be let down by what we sincerely feel (even AFTER months of open discussion) is a shockingly disappointing final product.

I don't really feel like your stated philosophy, especially the part outlined in the timestamp, acknowledges the reality that you can start out "curious" and still wind up overall deeply disappointed in and harshly critical of season 2 (pending, of course, a brilliant thinker and analyst making a video series that changes your mind).

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Also, as an aside, please be wary of the "appeal to authority" fallacy. "You think you know better than the writers?" is not a good, substantive way to address the "So and so is acting out of character" critique. It is not only valid to point out when characters seem to act inconsistently, but it's one of the premier writing challenges for sequels and long-term franchises to ensure that their characters behave in ways that make sense within the overarching narrative while simultaneously being internally consistent with that character's previously-established identity.

A character can absolutely be written inconsistently by the same writer. To assume and assert otherwise is to assert that the writers are, themselves, wholly consistent and infallible, which is silly. You can certainly feel and believe that Ellie is internally consistent - or even externally consistent with game Ellie - but "You think you know better than the writers?" is not the way to make that point.

I think the small counterargument to the "no game kills are canon" point I would make is: Ellie still does have the capability to do so. In games like say, A Plague Tale or Amnesia, the fact that the playable protagonist isn't strong enough to kill or fight their enemies is an important trait in their writing. The fact that Ellie does have the ability to kill and kill effectively in gameplay is still an important point to her character, just like her being weak and instantly alerting enemies in her section of gameplay in the first game is still important. I believe in an game-specific adaptation, the writers would have a responsibility to adapt at least a degree of that capability, and I think the show failed to do so by either having very little meaningful action across season 1 or 2. Instead of balancing out Ellie's canonical fuck ups (side note: I love that you brought this point up with footage/evidence because watching people treat Ellie as a killing machine was frustrating even when the game released) with her gameplay capability, it created a balance to her character. But when the show seemingly only adapts her canonical mistakes, it leaves her with only her cons and none of her pros. With the precarious position Show Ellie was already in, I think the writers didn't do the characters or Bella any favors. Especially when we have video evidence of cut fight scenes that Bella shot.

As a non-game player, I still found Season 2 unsatisfying, so have been turning to YouTube for game plays and analysis to understand what the story originally was. By FAR, your videos have been my absolute favorite, both for explaining the richness of the game's story, characterizations and what the show leaves out (understandable at times, not so much at others), as well as for your levelheadedness around criticism of the show. You are doing excellent work, and in this very negative internet environment, I wanted to be sure to let you know how much I appreciate your nuanced takes!

Not only did they reveal Abby's motivation, but they also showed the porch scene. Nothing was left.

17:32 I disagree though because as an audience, we can still root for characters. They could’ve weaponised that by having us root for Ellie but by front loading Abby’s backstory, it puts us, as you said, at odds with her.

I wish the show you describe in this video is the show i saw week after week
I wanted to like it as i had the first season
But it just couldn’t get there for me and honestly it just made me so sad how this is the first impression of one of my favorite stories ive ever seen
After i saw how they butchered Joels death scene my heart sank knowing what direction this would go

Just rewatched s2 over the holiday weekend and have been thinking about you and this channel. I haven't completed this video yet, but am so glad you posted it. I do hope  you participate again when s3 arrives years from now. Best of wishes.

I agree with you on so many points. I really liked the way you posed the question about what being a fan means. I love the story and I feel very fortunate I get to experience it anew, and has been so fun to replay the game in tandem and think about what within the medium made each change make sense :)