Yuval Noah Harari on Donald Trump’s Core Delusion | The Ezra Klein Show
The Ezra Klein Show
1,127,532 views
What are the conditions that enable a country to become great — or great again? The Trump administration — and other right-wing movements in other countries — offers a vision of greatness based on power and domination abroad, and a mix of shared national and religious stories at home. And that vision is clearly appealing to a lot of people. Liberals in the U.S. and elsewhere have been struggling to tell a story that can compete.
What story would Yuval Noah Harari tell? One of the through lines of Harari’s best-selling books — “Sapiens,” “Homo Deus,” “Nexus” — is the huge role that stories play in shaping the arc of history, driving humans to cooperate on a grand scale to achieve great things, or divide violently against one another.
So I wanted to ask him about the stories that the U.S. and Israel, in particular, seem to have embraced right now. What does history tell us about the power of this story? And why does the liberal story seem so weak right now?
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:05 Power vs. cooperation in history
00:07:13 The Trumpian vision of force
00:16:40 Why fiction is more powerful
00:20:30 The U.S. Constitution as a story
00:28:11 Morality and acknowledging suffering
00:38:07 The American Jewish schism
00:41:23 What do you do with power?
00:56:04 Why do deeply held stories shift?
01:01:17 Social media: a technology of fracture
01:06:00 Is social media illiberal?
01:13:22 A.I. hacks our emotional weaknesses
1:53:15 Book recommendations
Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/26/op...
Watch more on @EzraKleinShow
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...
Cinematography by Ed Beck and Eric Laplante
20 Comments
Under Frederick William I (the son of Frederick I), the Prussian state was developed into a "military monarchy." It is often estimated that, at times, as much as 70 to 80 percent of state revenue flowed into the military. Under Frederick I, this proportion was already very high; however, under his successor, it increased drastically once again in order to massively expand the standing army.
There are countless game-theoretic studies on the benefits of cooperation, and they all point in the same direction: cooperation pays off.
Finally, a word on the history of liberalism. Liberalism has two faces, much like the god Janus.
One face is the face of liberty. To the political movement of liberalism, we owe freedom of the press, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, democratic elections, and so forth.
The other face is economic freedom. In the 19th century, the focus was on free trade—the idea that nothing should restrict economic activity—and this is where things become problematic.
In the name of freedom, England waged the Opium War, conquered colonies, and engaged in the slave trade—and the other colonial powers were quick to follow England's lead.
Yuval Noah Harari on Donald Trump’s Core Delusion | The Ezra Klein Show
The Ezra Klein Show
1,127,532 views
What are the conditions that enable a country to become great — or great again? The Trump administration — and other right-wing movements in other countries — offers a vision of greatness based on power and domination abroad, and a mix of shared national and religious stories at home. And that vision is clearly appealing to a lot of people. Liberals in the U.S. and elsewhere have been struggling to tell a story that can compete.
What story would Yuval Noah Harari tell? One of the through lines of Harari’s best-selling books — “Sapiens,” “Homo Deus,” “Nexus” — is the huge role that stories play in shaping the arc of history, driving humans to cooperate on a grand scale to achieve great things, or divide violently against one another.
So I wanted to ask him about the stories that the U.S. and Israel, in particular, seem to have embraced right now. What does history tell us about the power of this story? And why does the liberal story seem so weak right now?
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:05 Power vs. cooperation in history
00:07:13 The Trumpian vision of force
00:16:40 Why fiction is more powerful
00:20:30 The U.S. Constitution as a story
00:28:11 Morality and acknowledging suffering
00:38:07 The American Jewish schism
00:41:23 What do you do with power?
00:56:04 Why do deeply held stories shift?
01:01:17 Social media: a technology of fracture
01:06:00 Is social media illiberal?
01:13:22 A.I. hacks our emotional weaknesses
1:53:15 Book recommendations
Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/26/op...
Watch more on @EzraKleinShow
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...
Cinematography by Ed Beck and Eric Laplante