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Re: intentionality

Even if there's no intentionality but the consequences of your actions have detrimental consequences, you're living unintentionally, which is damaging to intimate relationships. Because you're unpredictable.

Thank you Dr. Mark.!
The DSM needs an update!

Hey Sarah !, I am really giving you probs for putting yourself out there ! 👍....and of course also thank you to Marc Azoulay and all other participants ! 🙏......discussions like that are way more insightful and contributing to better and deeper understanding - than any sensation and polarization seeking movies behind excluding paywalls.....

"Now about that brain that you gave me, would you mind telling me whos' brain I put in?"
"Oh, it was  ...  Abby Normal."

"We're not born to inhibit thoughts and feelings. We're born screaming!" 🎯

oh man! There are so many good things said in this round table!

"There's a difference from being in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be seen in a certain way and someone who deliberately wants to hurt." 🎯

I FULLY see narcissistic traits in average people. Most don't even realize they're being self protective and manipulative.

Man is not an isolated self-esteem regulation machine. He/She needs to feel embedded in a social- and meaning-system, needs a relatively stable important place / a vital function within the system.
Look at the trajectory of society: where do we have this nowadays? Isn't the world f*cked up??
What if Narcissism is only a natural, organic force which becomes pathological in our strange, alienated Western society? Just like aggression or "adhd" e.g.

Imagine an astronaut going to Mars for 9 months in a totally artificial environment of a constricted, metal tube with small windows and 0 gravity. He "loses" is nerve and wants to open the hatch in order to break free from this floating coffin, take a breath of fresh air finally! Is he insane or is the hyper-technicized, unnatural environment insane?

@menstherapyonline - Thank you for hosting this great discussion! I hope your viewers find it helpful.

These comments are kind of all over the place and the panel felt a little like that too. Everyone is talking about narcissism through a different lens. Some from the perspective of a therapist trying to treat one (which requires them to assume the narcissist is treatable). Some from the perspective of the victim of a narcissist (which requires them to view the narcissist as a lost cause so they can get out of the abuse cycle and stop over explaining themselves to someone who doesn't want to hear it). Some from the perspective of the narcissist themselves (who really are usually deeply wounded and acting from a place of self protection in the best cases or manipulation, control and cruelty in the worst cases). There's such a spectrum of narcissists and I do believe some are treatable if they want to put in the hard work like Sarah was talking about and act contrary to how they naturally would every moment of every day.
My parents are narcissists and were incapable of empathizing with me. I ended up in a marriage to a narcissist with the relationship lasting 13 years. I thought if I kept explaining myself that he would finally understand. After I chose to separate from him, he told me he knew the entire time we were married what I wanted and what I was asking for and that he simply didn't want to do it. He also told me he saw everyone as chess pieces on a board and he could move them around and make them do what he likes. It was his attempt at honesty and trying to bring me back under his control. But I had believed in his innocence for our whole relationship and thought he was doing things unconsciously. The other women I've known who are/were married to narcissists experienced the same thing. Their husbands were abusing them fully consciously and knew what they were doing and doing it anyway.
So for the comments defending narcissists and saying we shouldn't vilify them-- you're right, some people should not. People like therapists and psychologists and other clinicians should see them as treatable.
For victims, however, it's almost a requirement in my experience for us to see them as untreatable in order to exit the abuse cycle. Otherwise I was just drowning in a pool of empathy for him and stating in the relationship way past the time I should have because I was convinced there was a chance he would eventually "get it" and change and stop hurting me. It wasn't until I gave up hope for him that I could leave.
I hope he found help and was able to change for his next wife. Otherwise he'll do the same thing to her over again.
I hope my parents are able to change so that they can meet my child, their grandchild someday. But until then, I need to live as though they can't. Because so far I haven't seen any evidence that they can.

This is great! I appreciate all of the perspectives here.

Wow! That lady is so brave ❤

See, I feel other people's pain so intensely I get self protective.

Thanks for this, guys; much appreciated :hand-pink-waving:

I'm learning to sit with anxiety and not react to some pretty big stressors just from previous experience. When I get involved trying to solve something out of anxiety, I make it worse and also not doing things away from those stressors that can cause more stress in the long run. Dam, it's hard lol. Now finding ways to deal with the stress that are not destructive.

Every video I see groups all the types of NPD into  just NPD like it's 1 or 2  types. There are 5 or 6 types of maybe more!. I grew up with an NPD mother and I've always been a magnet to NPD types. I have lived it.

Great discussion, thank you

As a student of Dr. Ernest Norman. There definitely is a True self and a false self. You must understand the psychic anatomy. Always more to learn and understand. Never say never or you will be operating with a full cup.

If you guys are right, my marriage would've worked. No amount of empathy, understanding, compassion and patience helped. He is a  Malignant Npd (undiagnosed) and bipolar (diagnosed). He was both abused, spoiled and was SA'd as well in childhood. He used me in every possible way. He was abusive with many, not just me. He has no insight or ability to self reflect. Ten years together and my nervous system was trashed.

It’s in the Bible the last day 3/4 of all men walking on the earth will be lovers of their self a.k.a. narcissism