TIME STAMPS
0:54 How Dr. Salerno defines pathological narcissism
4:00 How Dr. Ettensohn defines pathological narcissism
8:00Peter was disillusioned by what he learned about heritability at first
10:34 Mark addressing the seeming absence of childhood trauma in people with NPD
11:05 Mark believes there are many paths to NPD
13:25 Mark believes not all trauma is easily observed
14:08 Trauma is not sufficient to cause a personality disorder?
16:05 Peter responds to Mark saying he thinks trauma can cause a personality disorder
23:20 Peter is curious if Mark believes if there can be any predisposed deficiencies
27:08 Peter believes narcissists act more offensively and intentionally
29:33 Mark explains why he believes narcissism is more defensive
30:57 Peter explains how narcissists have told him they wanted to retaliate intentionally
36:15 Mark explains what he believes is the at heart of pathological narcissism
39:24 Peter explains what he believes is the heart of pathological narcissism
43:10 Mark explains what he believes the false self is
45:05 Mark explains why he believes trauma is the most important precursor
49:00 Peter explains why he believes it’s a myth that all narcissists are insecure
51:40 Mark responds
58:32 The Dark Triad narcissism
59:46 Peter says people are using the term narcissistic abuse wrong
1:01:20 Mark explains why he doesn’t like the term narcissistic abuse
1:04:55 Peters thoughts on the term narcissistic abuse
1:09:20 What Mark thinks isn’t helpful in the online narcissism discourse
1:12:40 Peter explains how there are people who act in ways where it seems like they aren’t human
1:14:10 Peter addresses Mark’s claim that people in a relationship with a narcissist may also have issues
1:17:25 The online discourse on narcissism does help get people clarity, what does Mark think about this?
1:22:08 Mark addresses the claims that he is a narcissist apologist or is enabling abusers
1:23:24 Closing thoughts

Some of the people I have come across in my life will not change with any amount of compassion. We need to be realistic about narcissists and accept that their manipulation is by design and not just a slip of their psyche.

@jaredmello - Thanks for hosting. This was a great discussion that reveals both the complexity of these issues (and how we measure and define them) and also that it is possible to move out of our biases toward mutual understanding. I’m grateful to both you and Dr. Salerno for the dialogue. 🙂

This is such a great example of how productive dialogues and debate ideally, when constructive outcomes are the objective, are conducted. Respect to all involved in this debate/discussion, you all were exemplary in your conduct.

What a great example of a civil exchange. A beautiful example of how to "agree to disagree"

Such a beautiful and respectful interview — it feels less like a debate and more like a genuine learning experience.
Coming from parents on the extreme ends of the Cluster B spectrum, I’ve learned that at the baseline of these disorders lies ego. Doing quiet inner work helped me rebuild from the ground up after letting that ego go.
Knowing this runs in my family, I’ve raised my kids with both love and awareness — teaching them self-reflection from a very young age. I truly believe that every trait can be used for something good, and that’s how I’ve guided my children. They’re adults now who still practice self-reflection daily and contribute positively to others.
The knowledge that my parents’ actions were intentional and deliberate was actually life-saving — it allowed true healing to begin. That understanding doesn’t take away from the respect I show them; it simply means I stay mostly quiet. My parents haven’t cut me out of their life and neither have I. This brings home the fact that If everyone would quietly focus on their own inner work without talking about the peace that needs to happen the world would be at peace.

Thank you Dr. Salerno! You are bringing much-overdue validation to victims. You are changing the world!❤

Dr. Salerno talks about heritability, I will agree.
In my opinion it mostly heritable. The inability for the narcisist to feel when they are purposely hurting someone and after being told, yet, they continue to hurt and lie. They don't want to learn and seem unable to learn. They lack the ability to learn and change for the better. In the end they don't care, they are unable to care. They lack moral judgment.

Thank you for having the grace to meet each other half way. Your talk was healing to listen to. I've been on the receiving end of abusive narcissistic behavior, and have people in my life whom I dearly love who are heavily narcissistic, along with one person who has ASPD. Each doctor seems to be tackling the issue of healing from both ends of the spectrum. This can only be a good thing. I really hope to hear more collaborations from them.

So many lives have been saved just by breaking free from that endless loop and realizing the abuse was intentional. The body goes through so much distress that surviving it feels impossible. But here’s what I keep wondering — how do we reconcile the fact that narcissists don’t seem to acknowledge that healing might have saved their lives too? How can we just lump everyone together like it’s the same story?

All three have shown humility and thoughtfulness in conveying their own ideas respectfully and with the intention to help people understand this ‘syndrome’. This can help our own healing and the help we give others as partners, friends, family and therapists. Thank you Jared

We HAD A GLOBAL BREAK IN THE PSYCHE DURING THE PANDEMIC

Love the respectfulness of this.

Peter Salerno makes a good point that a lot of people who have a narcissistic personality style actually don't have a history of going through things that genuinely felt traumatic to them. The whole point of narcissism as a defense mechanism is to prevent the person from losing control over their environment like they once did. In order for the defense mechanism of narcissism to work, the person with narcissism must never feel traumatized. If the person with narcissism were to feel traumatized, then the narcissism would not be doing its job. This confuses people because those with narcissism will, many times, sit in a therapy session and get the therapist to pity them for what they've "gone through." What the person with narcissism has "gone through," however, likely couldn't have been that traumatic, or they wouldn't be continuing to engage in the behavior associated with it. If you want to understand why that is, you would have to consider behaviorism and operant conditioning: generally, for most behavior in humans, rewarded behaviors increase, whereas punished behaviors decrease. If a particular behavior felt like a punishment for a person, why would they continue to emit the behavior?

Thank you to all 3 gentlemen. Very informative. And such a calm, soothing learning experience. Much appreciated! 🙏

Very beneficial convo. I learned a lot from both. Wish I heard all this 30 years ago!

1:04:43 envy, rage, withdrawal, splitting. All infantile ego defences. Pointing towards arrested fractured self states. Struggling to regulate the self. In terms of narcissistic abuse being a defining term: it’s hard to conceptualise our predicament post relationship. The fact is, most people don’t even realise they’ve been in a relationship with a pathological person. This is the problem when using scales from dark triad in comparison to the disorder itself. It’s the profound lack of attachment, meaning, empathy and shared relational experience. That causes the fracture. It feels abusive, and in many ways it is deliberate to the extent they have very maladaptive tendencies, that cause harm. Thanks again Jared.

My ex/narc said he had a great childhood but his dad was full blown NPD, mum in and out of mental institutions and dad having multiple affairs…his dad was so grandiose and always competed with him. Once said to him “There is nothing you can do or experience that I haven’t already done” and then on his death bed he said to him “ I bet I’ve been with more women than you have”!!! Constantly criticised everything he did, mum was obsessed with  his dad so don’t tell me he didn’t experience any trauma as a child!!
He was a horrible man and created a horrible son !

The section just before the hour, where they established that they were not really talking about the same thing, was valuable. Before this debate, I had wondered whether the group Dr Salerno focuses on was conflated with psychopathy, but now I'm seeing it more as a particular personality style, with its roots in our evolutionary history.

This was a great interview, discussion, debate. Thanks for doing this. I'd love to see more discussions like this.