In an interview John Romita Sr made clear both Lee and Kirby deserve equal credit: "We used to go out to lunch at the Playboy Club; sometimes four or five of us. We used to have wonderful conversations; I treasure them. You may have heard I used to drive home with them; whenever he was in for a story conference, Stan would drive Jack home. My house was on the way, so they'd drive me home, and then take Jack home. Sitting in the back seat of Stan's convertible with the top down, going up Queens Boulevard, listening to them plot stories, I felt like I was sitting behind Cecil B. DeMille's director's chair. It was the most wonderful thing; I felt like a kid back there".

I mean there's a difference between being unhappy with someone and throwing a public scene when you see them. It wouldn't be professional for Jack to take his issues out on Lee at a Con. It does seem like their relationship was real complicated.

yeah, I'm in the "the truth is somewhere in the middle" camp. I think Stan was depressed and wanting to quit. He got the superhero team request from Goodman. Jack gave him his pitch of a team similar to the challengers of the unknown. Stan went home and talked to his wife. She gave him the push to do the book his way. Stan came back and both men worked the new hero team idea into being a found family melodrama kid's soup opera.

The fact that Lee originally credited Ditko alone with the creation of Dr. Strange ("Twas Steve's idea") but later "remembered" creating the character himself speaks volumes.

“This is the water …”
David Lynch and Twin Peaks
Thank you for honoring him.

My mom knew Jack Kirby and Roz since they were all kids.  In the early 1950s I was often at their home on Long Island.  I was about 4-5 years old.  I remember their son Neal showing me his dad's studio in the basement. He also showed me how his dad used hinged wood figures to create different posses for the characters he created.  And many admirers of Jack probably never knew, but his daughter, Susan often posed for him as well when he drew female characters.  I recall a great deal more but I think its best it remain private forever.  Neal and I were throwing a football while in the studio and we damaged a wall behind the drawing board.  Jack wasn't thrilled and scowled at both of us.  Then he turned and walked away.  My mom and Roz stayed in touch forever.  They were best of friends.  Mom stood up for Roz at her wedding to Jack.  They all went to the beach together when they were kids before the war.  I have pictures of my mom and dad with Jack and Roz before the war

6:57 one thing I think is worth mentioning with the challengers is that they themselves weren’t even entirely Kirby creations, they were apparently an idea floating around between Simon and Kirby in the Harvey days after timely and jack even called Joe Simon up to see if he was ok with him using their challengers concept at dc

Off topic but,Damn George Perez could draw!

I think the fact we only have Lee's  outline for F4 and no other title actually speaks in favor of its authenticity rather than the other way around. If we assume Lee invented the outline retroactively to credit himself, why wouldnt he do this for every title (at least spider-man, given his problems with Ditko)? And why keep the things that changed (e.g Sue as an actress)?

"Lee may have had the idea, but Kirby had to visualize it and make it concrete"

But, earlier in the video you talk about Kirby taking material from Challengers of the Unknown for the origin of the team. How could Lee "have the idea" that incorporated Kirby's earlier work?

Ah yes, the eternal battle between the creator of the Fourth World and the creator of Stripperella.

I kid, I kid.  Great video as always.

Looking back, I think the addition of the Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, Cap in those early years might have been to maintain the copyright or whatever the legal mumbo jumbo reason is.

Funky Flashman , perfect ......

Lee and Kirby's relationship would have improved had they liked and subscribed.

I've always seen such confabs as idea-meshing from an older genre to a newer one. From the 1940s WWII plot characters to the Space Age 1960s plot characters. Production meetings were a godsend to all those who had run out of fresh ideas, and that wasn't limited to just Kirby, Steve, Stan - or Marvel, for that matter.

I really love this video.
Yeah, I lean into the idea of It being a complicated thing. The creative process is messy by definition. One has an idea, the other gives feedback, they develop the story, one jokes about something and the other takes an idea from that joke. When it's finished you can't draw the map of that journey, it's untraceable.

Well, that's a pretty cool Thing!

Thank you for another high quality video on the history of Western Comics. I had the blessing to see Kirby's artwork in-person at an art gallery, a showing sponsored by the Kirby Family for the 75th anniversary of the release of FF #1. Those beautiful pages, some inked and some sketches, were are a testament to the skill of the artist. The meager amount of pages still in Kirby family hand's is appaling, a reminder of the brazen theft of art committed at Marvel. Stan Lee, in his greed, was complicit in ripping off and exploiting Jack Kirby for his own fame and fortune. RIP Jack Kirby, the *REAL*  creator of Marvel's First Family.

the Department of truth

The synopsis to #1 is highly suspect. Kirby's fingerprints are all over the plot. Kid gang dynamics, links to Challengers and recycling ideas from earlier characters. With it's jokey and humorous tone It's also very different to the synopsis of #8 which was a dry and to the point outline. Lee didn't develop his jokey Stan the Man persona until later on.