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Chinese Martial Arts History is Mostly FAKE - Chat w/Dr. Peter Lorge | The KFG Podcast #179

The Kung Fu Genius

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EPISODE NOTES

I’m very excited to finally speak to Chinese history professor, Dr. Peter Lorge. Dr. Lorge wrote what I consider to be the best book about Chinese martial arts called Chinese Martial Arts: From Antiquity to the Twenty First Century. Here we discuss the problems with labels like internal and external and the general issues regarding historicity in Chinese martial arts. I had such a great time, I hope you learn something!

Enjoy the episode.

The KFG

Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:16 Theme song
00:24 Introducing Dr. Lorge
03:48 Patreon Plug
04:40 Online Private Training w/The KFG
06:14 Welcome Dr. Peter Lorge
08:22 Why the Interest in CMA?
15:55 The Modern Invention of Traditional MA
18:11 Internal Martial Arts
19:58 Dichotomy Between Internal & External
24:38 Mess of Curriculum & Categories
26:07 Internal MA Ever Mentioned in History?
28:50 Internal MA Really Grappling?
30:52 Zhang San Feng
34:08 Wu-Tang vs. Shaolin
37:10 Movies Influence "History"
38:00 Lack of Real Records of CMA
39:10 Response to Dr. Lorge's Book
40:36 Difficulty of Finding Kung Fu in Asia
41:53 Yip Man Teaching in Hong Kong
42:38 Real Lineages?
43:28 Pure Styles & Good Masters
51:30 Wing Chun Illustrated Ad
51:54 BJJ Parallels
52:15 Orthodoxy in Methods
56:10 Modern Spin on "Tradition"
59:20 Laymen Learning MA
1:04:45 Who Was at Shaolin?
1:06:45 Armed & Unarmed Focus
1:08:14 Wrapping Up
1:08:46 KFG on 36 Chambers Mythology
1:09:47 Outro
1:10:00 Credits
1:10:20 Flubs

LINKS/SOCIAL

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CONTACT

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Alex Richter
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SPECIAL THANKS

Genius Supporters of the Kung Fu Genius:
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This episode was brought to you by (Baller/Closed Door Level):
Mark Anderson
Matty J
Roberto Santiago
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Francisco Ortiz
Mark Perna
Jack Chiu
Topher Mowry (thatotherwingchunguy)
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Crew -
Producer: Mikey Deane
Co-Host: Dre Ison
Editor: Andrew Lin
Song “Kung Fu Genius”: Kess the MC

20 Comments

@Swordsage 2 years ago

I am so glad that you did a podcast on this topic. Guys like Brian Kennedy have been talking about this for years. Even earlier Chinese Martial arts historians like Tang Hao were busting myths as far back as the 20s, but modern day people would rather hold onto the myths. I remember how much backlash I got bringing up these facts among martial artists I knew. So seeing people like Dr. Peter Lorge continuing to research and publish this history is refreshing.

We need more podcasts like this. :)

@jchien 1 year ago

The guy on the tip of the professor’s tongue was Sun Lutang 孫祿堂 founder of Sun Style Tai Chi.

@KARATEbyJesse 2 years ago

Would love timestamps! 🙏🥋👍

@EvosBasics 2 years ago

Sad you had to cut him off, follow up episodes is a must!

@sc-mh8hy 2 years ago

Looking foreward to. Was worried about the missing episode yesterday😂

@OutfrontStudio 2 years ago

This is an amazing episode. Really appreciate it! Dr. Lorge great to hear from you. Will pick up your book. Thx Sifu!

@TanMoGe 10 months ago

I've listened to this four times now. I anticipate I will replay it in the future.

@WholeCosmos 2 years ago

great interview!

@kyrolantsberger2659 1 year ago

Good interview! Great guest! You guys really worked off of each other well to really bring out the best conversation.

@KungFu_Dean78 2 years ago (edited)

I remember The Little Dragon stating this regarding this very subject matter and in his opinion and Quote:" To me the Ninety Nine Percent of Oriental Self Defence is Baloney, it looks good but it doesn't work and regarded as a classical mess."

But myself having learned Sanda! /5 Ancestors? I myself through ; sparring, application and I quickly learnt what was practical and what was non practical.

@ruiseartalcorn 2 years ago

Great interview! Many thanks :)

@theskeptictank 1 year ago

As usual, THANK YOU! I've been drinking your stuff up; and have various interests peaked; and just ordered a copy of the book you brought up in the intro. De mystification can be jarringly, scandalous - but necessary. Fortunate to be exposed to this at this point of my life and martial development.

@shinobi6587 2 years ago

Another good one. Last two have been solid.

@sardalamit 1 year ago

Hello Alex. This episode with Dr. Peter Lorge ranks amongst your top 5 for sure, irrespective of season. So many points, layers to this. For me this was less about Chinese Martial Arts history and more about form vs formlessness. What he said about BJJ, BJJ's focus on a syllabus or lack thereof was what Krishnamurthy and later Bruce Lee were talking of. Based on your podcasts I understand Bruce Lee too did not have a standard syllabus or structure, with its own pros and cons. Looks like that was more in synch with today's BJJ.
Another point that I would like to pick his brain on more would be comparing Judo vs BJJ in the context of teaching. For the longest time I have been looking for BJJ with the kind of structured syllabus that Judo has. I feel more comfortable with Judo simply because I know what to do at my belt level. Whereas in BJJ even for White belts one day it will be Mount attacks and the next session might be Leg Lock Defenses. Post the podcast I was thinking: for all my love of Judo I have caught way more people in an arm triangle, Americanas and Kimuras as compared to successfully throwing someone with a Seoi Nage. Just wondering how much of the free flow of BJJ learning helped me more.
Looking forward to another episode with him!
Cheers to whole team!

@AllsFairInRockNRoll 2 years ago

I agree with his statement on BJJ, at least it was also my experience. They were teaching de la riva on my first day...I was lost.
But nowadays, many schools do have a set curriculum, with a way of getting from point A to point B.

@quach8quach907 2 years ago

We have a word in English.

traveling performers = busking, buskers

from the Spanish word buscar = to seek. To seek fame and fortune in the busking sense.

buskers are beggars.

Singing, dancing, acting, playing a musical instrument, juggling, acrobats, sports etc.

People still busk today.

Minor league baseball (traveling performers) still use their caps to take donations.

Selling tickets is just a more established form of busking.

The closest English word we have to "Rivers and Lakes" are

buskers + out-of-towners

@bluez4u2 1 year ago

I wonder if he studied with John S Wang in Texas. He taught Shuai Jiao at UT Austin.

@chrisbach1533 2 years ago

I like that very much :)! Thx to both of you! Long before your podcast starte in 2015 or so, I found a YT channel named "Off the Great Wall", its still there. Its run by some Chinese-Americans who speak Mandarin, I mean they speak English in the video's, but some times several things in Mandarin. And they made a video "10 Greatest Kung Fu Masters Who Ever Lived", and this was the list, I copy it over from the description box:

1. Yue Fei
2. Zhang Sanfeng 张三丰
3. Wang Lang 王朗
4. Chen Wangting 陈王廷
5. Zhang Songxi 张松溪
6. Gan Fengchi 甘凤池
7. Dong Haichuan 董海川
8. Yang Luchan 杨露蝉
9. Wong Feihung
10. Huo Yuanjia

When people in the comment section mentioned Bruce Lee or Yip Man, they said things like: "Yeah, they were good. But guys, we are speaking here about centuries of MA history. The One-Inch-Punch is cool, but there were Kung Fu masters who could stomp holes in concrete floors with their bare feet, thats what Lee and Yip couldnt".

Of course they didnt say it that way, but it was portrayed like that. I laughed at it back then and still do today.

But yeah, overall they had some nice rankings. Also who was the hottest chinese man or woman. The women were Xi Shi, Diao Chan, Wang Zhaojun and Yang Guifei.