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Why Old Valyria Shouldn’t Have Worked

Probably True Tales

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PS.
This video is made purely for fun and curiosity. It isn’t intended as criticism of George R. R. Martin, the source material, or the worldbuilding of ASOIAF. The calculations are just an attempt to explore what the fictional logistics might look like if we applied real-world assumptions to them.

Sources / Further Reading

George R. R. Martin, Elio M. García Jr. & Linda Antonsson — The World of Ice & Fire
George R. R. Martin — Fire & Blood
George R. R. Martin — A Dance with Dragons
George R. R. Martin — “Here There Be Dragons”
https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2...
Witton & Habib — “On the Size and Flight Diversity of Giant Pterosaurs”
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...
Lasiewski & Dawson — bird metabolic scaling
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/vi...
Nagy — “Field metabolic rate and body size”
https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/a...
Agricultural History Review — medieval livestock/agriculture papers
https://bahs.org.uk/

Note: figures such as 500 dragons, average dragon mass, calorie requirements, livestock numbers and land/labour estimates are modelling scenarios based on the sources above, not canonical statistics.

Base Map:
Essos during the Height of Valyria - ASOIAF by AlisterSinclair
https://www.deviantart.com/alistersin...

#valyria #gameofthrones #fireandblood #targaryen #westeros #houseofthedragon #georgerrmartin #fantasylore #armyeconomics #hbo #fantasyworld #medievalfantasy #medievalarmy #armycosts #gotprequel

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20 Comments

@ProbablyTrueTales Creator 1 month ago Pinned

What part of the system do you think I underestimated the most?
Also, serious question: is it finally time I leave Westeros for a bit and start overthinking Tolkien?

@golgarisoul 1 month ago

A Song of Logistics and Economics.

@awesomehpt8938 1 month ago

“Free labour” so were they interns?

@vibechecker3168 1 month ago

We will make a new Valyria here in Westeros!

“Oh yeah look at my model city Alicent, here’s the blood magic tower and the human sacrifice square isn’t that cool?!”

@theshadowling1 1 month ago

Something to consider with the end of the Rhoynar Wars was that the 300 Dragons being sent was a truly overwhelming force sent to punish the death of three Dragons and their Dragonlords. It was the "How DARE you harm a Dragonlord" response, and removing the only thing in Essos that could actually threaten a Dragon, water-wizards. It also had the benefit of being fairly close to Valyria itself, and in the territory of Valyria's richest and largest vassal colony, Volantis.

@shadeofthelamp1218 1 month ago

One thing to take into account is that the Lands of the Long Summer were apparently the most fertile place in the world prior to the doom, which undoubtedly helped provide grain for both people and livestock. Another more grim thing to consider is that Valyrian slaves were frequently worked to death, and there’s a very strong possibility their corpses would be fed to dragons.

@Valryrion 1 month ago

Also the slaves dying in the mines can be feed to the dragons.

@3esiln 1 month ago (edited)

It is surprisingly easy to ensure the prosperity of a few dozen people if you have access to a continent spanning empire and just don't give a sh*t about the vast majority of people living inside of it.

@kakutoja7060 1 month ago

Also we can’t forget that Valyrian peninsula was full of volcanoes and one of the best advantages of living next to volcanos is how fertile the area surrounding them is. Later on with the advancements and the mines the land might get more and more polluted so there’s a possibility that they needed to expand their territory to sustain its population of both dragons and citizens.

@eduardoshinel4679 1 month ago

It is important that you mentioned that Vhagar and Balerion were exceptional dragons, in lore there's Seton Barth who suppoert the idea by saying that "the Targeryans bred their dragons to war" which means that they gave their dragons all the food they wanted to keeping them massive, and they needed them this way, different from the freehold, the Targaryans in Westeros did not had massive legions of soldiers so they needed their dragons as massive and intimidating as possible for war. but in Valyria, dragons were used for more than war, i guess you dont need a Vhagar sized dragon to melt steel or roads. My guess is that most of the dragons in Valyria, while still war machines, were bred only enough to do what it was needed for them, i imagine the average Valyrian dragon being more like show Sunfyre than Vermithor for example.

@rwagingsloth9528 1 month ago (edited)

one thing that would have overcomplicated this already complicated thought experiment, older animals tend to have lower metabolic rates which means that despite the larger size of the elder dragons, they would have probably required less annual Kcalories, relative to their size, than younger more active dragons.

edit- forgot to mention, babies in humans require SIGINFICANTLY more Kcalories due to growing, so hatchlings would actually require a lot more food relative to their size, when compared to an Elder dragon, in order to facilitate their growth

@evan-qo3bq 1 month ago

I think something needs to be accounted for. We dont know that Balerion and Vhagar were the biggest a dragon could become. The Targs were considered a fairly middling house in old Valyria, we know Balerion died of old age BUT we know he suffered devastating injuries when he returned to Valyria. It is feasible that there were dragons far older and massive than even Balerion.

@ДанаДана-м2ъ 1 month ago

The tumbnail alone deserves praise

@smoczystrumien7908 1 month ago

Valyria most likely had several types of dragons. Their structures were crafted using dragonfire. Therefore, those 300 dragons were most likely simply war and logistic suport dragons.

@libertylemonz7145 1 month ago (edited)

It should be pointed out that since the Targs were described as having "WAR dragons" we might assume there were other breeds of dragons who had other caloric intakes.
Some theorists have posited the idea of construction dragons who were bred to make the fused-stone roads and castles of Valyria (and thus would need to have hotter fire and/or be larger, as it took Balerion the black dread to melt Harrenhal), as well as possible racing dragons, messenger dragons, sports dragons, show dragons etc.
So the "over a thousand dragons" might not mean 1000 war dragons, especially given that only 300 were sent to fight the Rhoynar.
On top of the age group differentiation, dragon breed might have also given us wildly different needs for different dragons.

@tonytruong861 1 month ago

Maybe Valyria had huge tracts of land consisting of black soil, with said soil also being coated in volcanic ash spewed from the 14 flames, resulting in the land becoming extremely fertile.

@GreebleClown 1 month ago

From what I remember hearing the Targaryens raised their dragons differently than in Valyria. There weren’t dragon pits that kept dragons chained and cared for like stables until the Targarians built one in Westeros. In Valyria I believe the reason their dragons grew so large was because they were left to fly freely until they were recalled to do something (they also were completely controlled with those dragon horns they had so it’s unlikely the dragons willingly stayed close to their riders all of the time like we see with Targaryen dragons) so except maybe when they were just hatched and still young and growing they probably didn’t have to plan for feeding them, the dragons would go out and hunt for themselves. They also lived near the sea so there’s a large source of food. And considering there were giant fire worms in the volcanoes it’s reasonable to consider there were other unknown large creatures for the dragons to hunt and eat besides livestock.

@wegmier1621 1 month ago (edited)

My personal headcanon is dragons require much less sustenance to maintain core temperature. Warm-blooded animals need a lot of food to maintain that. If dragons have a biological mechanism to generate heat and breathe fire, maybe they are utilizing that constantly to heat their bodies at a much "cheaper" rate, requiring much less food

@alifarrakib838 1 month ago

makes you apreciate Cannibal for surviving so long without humans, bro was feeding off dragons , people, fish and any thing that came his way. Targaryens moved in and he went ah dinner.

@神林しマイケル 1 month ago (edited)

One thing to note about how the dragonlords fed their dragons was that, the valyrians were also mages. They also were said to have had chimeras, mixing different species to birth a new species, and supposedly mated the human slaves they had with different beasts. So they could also had a food farm, much like how we farm and take care of our livestock. The valyrians could have done the same and probably was more effective given they also had access to magic.