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Dallin H. Oaks and Electroshock Therapy for Gays at BYU | Ep. 1505

Mormon Stories Podcast

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In a speech given November 12, 2021, at the University of Virginia, Mormon apostle Elder Dallin H. Oaks denied that electroshock and vomit aversion was used as a form of "gay conversion therapy" during Oaks' tenure as president of Brigham Young University.

Join John Dehlin, Gerardo Sumano, Kyle Ashworth, and Connell O'Donovan as we discuss the history of electroshock therapy at BYU---and determine whether or not Oaks was being truthful about its use at BYU in the 1970s.

Part 1 of Mormon Stories discussion about Oaks' visit to UVA
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast...

"Going Forward with Religious Freedom and Nondiscrimination," address by Elder Dallin H. Oaks at the University of Virginia on November 12, 2021
2021 Joseph Smith Lecture: Dallin H. Oaks

Q&A session (and partial transcript) with Dallin Oaks before the UVA address
Dallin H. Oaks | University of Virginia Q&...

Latter Gay Stories podcast, hosted by Kyle Ashworth
https://lattergaystories.org/

Mormon historian Connell O'Donovan
http://www.connellodonovan.com/

"On The Record: A Chronology of LGBTQ+ Messaging," by Latter Gay Stories
https://lattergaystories.org/wp-conte...

Affirmation LGBTQ Mormons, Family, and Friends
https://affirmation.org/

Dallin H. Oaks’ bio
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/l...

"A Message to Young Men," Boyd K. Packer's "little factory" talk from 1976 General Conference, in which he compared sperm production to a factory as a way to discourage boys from masturbating
Video

A side-by-side comparison of the original vs. the Church-edited version of Hartman Rector's 1981 General Conference talk "Turning the Hearts"
Hartman Rector Jr. | Turning The Hearts *O...

"Effect of Visual Stimuli in Electric Aversion Therapy," by Max Ford McBride, Psychology dissertation, Brigham Young University, 1976
https://archive.org/details/BYUaversi...

FAIR's response to electroshock and vomit aversion at BYU
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/a...

Legacies, BYU Electroshock Documentary, Gentile Pictures, 1996
BYU Electroshock Documentary | Gay Convers...

Goodbye, I Love You by Carol Lynn Pearson
https://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Love-C...

The Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball
https://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Forgiv...

"The Abominable and Detestable Crime Against Nature: A Revised History of Homosexuality & Mormonism, 1840-1980," by Connell O'Donovan
http://www.connellodonovan.com/lgbtmo...

Dr. Allen Bergin apologizes for his role in carrying out electroshock aversion at BYU in the 1970s
https://lattergaystories.org/bergin/

"Dallin Oaks says shock therapy of gays didn't happen at BYU while he was president. Records show otherwise," by Peggy Fletcher Stack, Salt Lake Tribune, November 16, 2021
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/...

00:00:00 Introduction and opening remarks
00:15:00 Background of Elder Dallin H. Oaks.
00:21:38 When asked about electroshock and vomit aversion at BYU while he was president, Oaks denied it, which is a lie
00:28:04 Oaks says he "speaks differently" to Mormon vs. non-Mormon audiences
00:34:40 In leaked audio from a Kansas youth fireside, Oaks tells them not to record Church leaders because then they can't speak candidly; he proceeds to make a bunch of homophobic statements
00:37:15 The Church alters, re-records, or erases all evidence of past leaders' statements without noting that the content has been changed from its original
00:48:52 The history and practice of electroshock aversion at BYU
01:14:13 First-hand accounts of BYU participants in electroshock
01:27:32 BYU students were sent to electroshock, under threat of being expelled, if they were caught or admitted to homosexual thoughts or behavior
01:33:27 Some who were responsible for BYU electroshock have taken responsibility; others continue to insist it never happened
01:44:34 Where does Mormonism go from here to redeem this history?
01:57:07 Closing remarks

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20 Comments

@patriciaball8346 4 years ago (edited)

This happened exactly as described to my brother while attending BYU in 1978-9. They told him to buy his own pornography (he had to go to Salt Lake to purchase) He was turned in by someone in his dorms. He was threatened that if he did not participate in the "therapy" his parents would be told and he would be kicked out of school. After going to "treatments" for some time, he attempted suicide. Luckily, someone found him and he survived. He eventually left BYU and was disowned by my father. He has gone through YEARS of therapy. He wanted to listen today, but thought it would be too triggering for him. I'm SO angry this happened to him and angry the church is still denying it today.

@Mustardmanor 4 years ago

Instead of denial, why doesn't someone take responsibility and APOLOGIZE?!?! And try to make amends?!?!?! That is part of the repentance process.

@kentthalman4459 4 years ago

Choice A) Acknowledge, admit, and apologize; Choice B) Lie for the Lord. Did anyone think that an apostle would chose option A?

@JP-JustSayin 4 years ago (edited)

Follow question up for Oaks...

When contradictions are found between your "private" remarks and your "public" remarks, which set of remarks would you prefer for the combined audience of church members and the general public to disregard?

Or in other words, when it's clear that you are speaking inauthentically to one of these groups... which is it?

@Geoplanetjane 4 years ago

Thank G_d that my boys and I left „the church“ before they were teenagers, so they are now normal successful young men without having to go their any of those horrible experiences.

@evieann4442 4 years ago

Omg!!! My parents took me to see Randy Hyde as a child and he dismissed my trauma. This was 20 years ago and it is still infuriating to me. If I got true help right away, it could have made all the difference.

@iamjustsaying1 4 years ago

I don't think one can pass this off by saying that he's just old and forgetful. He's still showing up as mentally sharp, and he responded to this question adamantly, not as one who is unsure. And even if he did somehow forget something this impactful, he's had adequate time to say that he misspoke and regrets that this happened at all, especially under his leadership.

@jamesdykman4000 4 years ago

Anthropology grad student 1973 to 76 my office was in old campus, site of present site of provo city library. Interacted with psych students who part of shock therapy studies in the basement rooms that were part of psych department

@ethanmaxwell4424 4 years ago (edited)

50:00 , I usually don’t get triggered or upset very easily, infact i have a very high tolerance even for traumas I personally suffered. But this literally made me throw up and cry….

@kentthalman4459 4 years ago

Very informational. Thanks for documenting this.

@Steve-the-Reiki-guy 4 years ago

I believe the original artwork that the t-shirt is based on is "Christ Breaking a Rifle" by Otto Pankok

@ParsifalChannel 4 years ago

I know for a fact that Mormons were still doing this all over Utah Valley during the 1980s and 1990s.

@allekatrase3751 4 years ago

The no recording thing is stupid. He says they don't want you to record so you don't clip it out of context. But, he says that's not a problem with conference because they record it themselves so they can show when it's out of context.

They have the capability to record and publish every time any of these guys speak anywhere. Even if it's a private meeting, but especially when they're speaking publicly. The only excuse he provides doesn't hold up at all. If that was the real reason then the obvious solution is for them to record and post every time these guys speak publicly or at any conference. They should be doing that anyway.

@linapanela 1 year ago

It looks like this will be an important topic given recent events and his likely assumption of becoming the next prophet?

@CaptCrashIdaho 4 years ago

He is embarrassed. A personal apology would be in order.

@dalerice1491 4 years ago

When a man robs a liquor store but doesn't want to be identified, doesn't he wear a disguise, and avoids volunteering any information that connects him to the scene of the crime ?
I think it's normal human behavior for Elder Oaks to lie about his interest in electric shock procedures facilitated at BYU,
but It might as simple as he doesn't want any liability, accountability or face up to consequences.
At some level, he must know that good men, decent men live a moral code of Doing unto others..... and that he's helped create an expectation that church leaders and especially apostles take upon themselves the name of Christ, and if people record him saying the words that come out of his mouth, he's going to get caught being two-faced when people compare notes and he clearly doesn't keep his story "straight" among the different groups he addresses .

@Pianowithmitchy 4 years ago

Connell is an absolute sweetheart

@alyssanerney3486 4 years ago

Amazing content, but also.. Gerardo! I love your hairstyle and colour!

@GoFergis1 1 year ago

My mission companion told me she was the Editor of the BYU newspaper The Daily Herald in the 80’s. She found out about the electroshock conversion therapy and wanted to do a feature on it. She was expressly forbidden to write about the topic.