Thanks for tagging us in this. I enjoyed the discussion

It’s crazy that these Protestants when confronted with the truth they still find ways to cope and would rather go with what they think.  Wes and Gavin are wolves in Christianity.  It’s hard to give up your online empire and admit you are wrong.

Does Gavin not read the pslams? Particularly psalm 102, where prayers to angels end the psalm.

Protestants do sing the creed! I was at a church a year or two ago where they literally played a Creed song, yes the rock band Creed, no explanation, just moved on to the next “worship” song afterward. I was laughing my ass off

Watch out...he might say you're just citing the header 😂

@16:00 perfectly described the star wars quote, "Only Sith deal in absolutels..." which is itself an absolute statement from a Jedi.

great panel. need more ortho-catholic tagteam content like this

I pray for those who listen to Gavin and take his theology seriously

The exclusivism of non-exclusivism! Once you see this in Christian groups, you can’t unsee it. When attending non-denominational groups, I would say something similar to my wife regarding legalism, where some become legalistic in their non-legalism! 😂 … probably a bit off topic but I witnessed on more than a few occasions where evangelicals would talk about spiritual doors being open in a person’s life, where they had “come into agreement” with something demonic (which as face value seemed innocuous). It could even be residue from an ancestor that left a portal for demonic attack. They would go on purges around their houses looking for items that could be the source of the attachment … it turned into paranoia with some and is one of the reasons I stepped away and moved towards Orthodoxy. Bizarre how those same people would be scandalised by iconography yet they would obsess about purging their home of every little trinket that their great auntie might have brought them back from her holiday in Africa! 🤔

Problem is having any assumption of good faith on Ortlund's part. NeedGod is even worse. Anytime he gets challenged he starts virtue signaling that his opponent needs humility and to open his heart to Christ. They have nothing but outright misrepresentations, lying by omission, virtue signaling, and spiritual gaslighting to rely on.

There is a clear attestation: In Revelation the 24 elders offer incence to God. And that incence is the prayers of the saints. And in the context of Revelation "saints" means living Christians on Earth. And the 24 elders in Heaven have received these prayers from living Christians. If the prayers were given to God, God would have them, no need for the offering. But since the Elders received them, they were prayed to and they in turn offer the prayers they receive to God.

There is no explanation of this verse that can work, without discarding some aspect of it. But if you just take the text as it is, it's clear that this is intercessory prayer received by heavenly beings.

I think Stephen makes an insightful point on Gavin saying that the rejection of the intercession of the saints is the “Protestant position,” when Protestant belief isn’t monolithic and there are many Protestants who do believe in saintly invocation. A friend of mine is a Protestant and he sees no reasons to object to saintly invocation.

And the Lord Himself conversing with Moses and Elijah on Mt. Tabor.

Bro, I’m so pumped to see Stephen on here with you

Also about how they define Sola Scriptura and how it is used

1:20 this is why I'm so frustrated by people claiming to know what is out there.

We have found a amulet which dates to approximately 200 years after Christ which clearly is asking for St Titus' intercession, so unless Gavin believes we have found the amulet of the first "heretic" in his mind, that means it was occurring prior to the dating of the amulet.

The dating also reflects the context in which it was found not the date it was made. Protestants seem to forget that the early Church was poor and heavily persecuted. So material culture explodes after Christianity is tolerated at the Edict of Milan.

I think it's also evident in this day and age how the Jews go to venerate the wall in Jerusalem and kiss it as well. It's continued though they reject Christ etc.

Loved the point from Matthew.  I usually just go to the transfiguration as if anyone believes that Jesus is fully man and well as God then his interaction with the Moses and Elijah is in the realm of actions that some of his followers will also experience.

As for prayers to saints, when Jesus prayed before being grabbed by soldiers, Peter, seeing two angels with Him, offered to put three altars: to Jesus, to Moses and to Elijah. This is the pure Gospel showing that there was veneration of saints at the time of Jesus' first coming and He never rebuked it as a practice. Not just apostolic letter, but Gospel with Jesus Himself.

At this point assuming that Gavin has ulterior motives is a pretty safe bet.