As an elder goth. The best part of alt fashion becoming popular is that I can now wear my clothes to the office.

On the topic of gatekeeping, speaking on “wether you’ve suffered enough,”  we should not sensationalize trauma/suffering within the aesthetic.

I was that black alt girl who was completely taunted day to day by peers and family; my family was the worst. I ended up being forced into not wearing the clothing, makeup, etc due to the beliefs of my parents, so here I am at twenty-five healing my inner child and going back to being who I never got to be. All in all, it is annoying that some of the same people who treated us like shit are now popularizing alt culture and aesthetic, but I'd rather see the culture becoming "trendy" than to have todays alt kids still go through the same amount of trouble that we went through in 2010.

There's a certain part of me that feels like the backlash about "not like other girls" is itself unhealthy to a certain extent, having a certain tinge of "if you don't get along with everyone you're wrong and a pick me"

I wanted to mention that in past alt/goth fashion trends it wasn’t odd to wear military clothing, including Nazi era uniforms, as a big middle finger to the military industrial complex and Nazis. Nowadays those items don’t seem to translate quite as well and are more likely to just be seen as offensive.

I remember emo kids would get beat up where I lived, so I would avoid liking "emo" bands/looks/clothes out of fear, and everyone around me would do it too. After a while everyone apparently hated emo, but I'm sure no one knew why. It all probably started from some bully's insecurities and spread like the plague.

I'm glad the younger generations are apparently embracing it.

when i was first introduced to the online alt (mostly fashion) community, it took me a long time to notice how different it is from the alt community i witnessed back in high school (literally 2016, not that long ago) and how everyone used the same three songs in their videos, wore the same outfit combinations from the same stores, etc etc... it's like the new wave of surface level alternative is purely a social media aesthetic and there's a strict "no originality" policy

Something I'd like to point out is that gothic =/= goth.

Although some fashion brands and people may take inspiration from it, gothic architecture has very little to do with the goth subculture. Its name originates from *gothic rock*, a music genre from the 80s that occasionally takes inspiration from gothic literature (as seen by "Bela Legosi's Dead" by bauhaus, one of the more popular songs within the subculture) but is mainly characterized by its use of instruments and vocal style. Goth in general is an umbrella term for many genres that originated from postpunk and have similar traits to gothic rock, such as deathrock, coldwave, ethereal, and many more.

The fashion style that we know to be associated with goth came from people getting creative and taking inspiration from the sound and looks of the music artists that helped start the genre (The Cure and Siouxsie and the Banshees being more obvious examples, but many many more artists contributed to this). It is an Optional part of the subculture. A form of self expression.

What defines a goth as a person is someone who enjoys the music and at least wants to take part in the community in some way. You can show up to a goth club in a t-shirt and jeans and no one'll care as long as you're cool about it. This is not a high set of standards, but many will call us gatekeepers and elitists for this.

What IS elitism is this bizarre and very modern idea that you have to completely overhaul your entire wardrobe and home with luxury occult brands and expensive items, and to live that way 24/7 or you aren't a "real goth". It completely undermines the working class people and values that built this subculture in the first place, and puts a price tag on a subculture that was never supposed to be about that. You do NOT need a 24/7 darkalt aesthetic to be a goth. It's fine to have those things, it's fine to want them, but it is not a requirement and we need to stop treating it as such.

I also have a lot of words for people who think of us as the "big tiddy goth gf" stereotype but I'll save that for another day. Angela Benedict has a good video on it I believe, I think it's titled "Goth is not your fetish" and discusses the way this has harmed so many people within the subculture, particularly minors.

I also have some playlists for people who are interested in learning more about goth, this is my playlist explaining what it is and a bit of the history: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLK4LkzpKtOvItSFLpDcTyb8lQjNjqGix5

And this is my personal playlist for goth music: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLK4LkzpKtOvIy34On5_onb2HpN8mRn5sH

I started college in New York in the late 80's and was introduced to Goth (I was already a nerd, lol!). One of my best friends, who I met at the time, was, and remained, goth until her death early this year.  She was kind, funny, edgy, accepting, and one of the loveliest people I've ever known.  Her memorial was crowded, with people from all walks of life.  She had so many passions, and so many people loved her.  So when I think of Goth, I think of her.  And, when I'm at my best, I try to be more like her.  She never judged anyone on the surface.

I've been " Alt" since highschool. Did know there was a name. I was called goth, scene, emo, and days I like to dress like a cute pirate , I was " Jack Sparrow" mockingly. Throw being a  black girl on top of that, I was just called " weird " but also " cool" to a lot of my other peers .

Reminder that goth is primarily a musical subculture and not necessarily a visual aesthetic, although there are some common elements that goths like to wear. If you don't listen to the music then you're not goth, simply as. I'm not gate keeping but simply trying to inform what goth is.

I find it funny that my older sister hates this new alt girl look her eldest daughter is doing. My sister is into Lacuna coil and all bands that sounds like them and presented herself like Death from that sandman comics since 1997 to probably 2010s.

I think the main issue with "Alt Girl" is the fact that "Alt" is not a specific subculture. It may be exactly the problem you 16:23 chapter. With fashion being a language, being "Alt" is just being outside the norm, taking language from actual subcultures, but not bringing with that language any of the meaning. If safety pins start being popular, will it still stand for "ally"?

I think I was probably someone who would have benefitted from the “alt girl community” growing up, but when I was younger in a small town, it was kind of bundled into “goth/emo” and not something a shy, heavy-set nerd would be welcomed into. I liked a lot of the qualifying “aesthetics” (black clothing, love bats and Halloween vibes, alt/metal/punk music preferences, etc.), but I didn’t “look enough” like Lydia from Beetlejuice to be considered valid.

Definitely fell hard into the “not like the other girls” misogyny pit, really not proud of it. I am not surprised to hear about the gatekeeping aspect though. I can understand people feeling a little annoyed at their “rejected self” suddenly being popularized and used for clout, but I heavily disagree with the idea that we need to draw lines on who is a “true alt” when it just makes the space divisive and uncomfortable. A recent example I can think of for comparison was certain Metallica “fans” being mad at the surge of popularity for the band after Stranger Things’ Season 4 finale. Their disdain and attempts to draw lines on who were the real “fans” were shut down by the band and completely miss the value in how relevant the music was to the character in the show. Nothing is gained by excluding people from something and really, it just highlights a person’s hypocrisy—if you’re mad someone is using your “style” for clout, then why are you shutting them out for that same clout? Let people enjoy and find identity in what they want.


I don’t spend much time these days paying attention to the alt scene, but this was a very enlightening view and I hope this space continues to become much more inclusive as time goes on!

As a teenage boy in the late-1990s (I'm almost 44 now), I personally always noticed and preferred "alt girls" because it signaled to me that they were intelligent, creative, and most importantly they had the willpower to be a little different and to think for themselves. (I married one, incidentally, and we have a beautiful child together).

I think there's always going to be a "cultural safety valve" group of some kind (whatever exactly it's called) for people who just feel a little different -- maybe a little deeper and moodier -- than the mainstream, but who still want to belong to something.

I remember that an emo told me she liked it because "they accept everyone" but I felt like it was more that they accepted people like her. She was strongly against "regular" girls and "fake emos" and that's just not being open to everyone

Just gonna expand on some things about goth for anyone curious-

1. While a fascination with the darkness and mortality and the badass fashion are often part of "goth territory", the main requirement to be goth is to enjoy the music (as it's a music based subculture. Being a goth who's "not into the music" is sort of like saying you're a metalhead but don't listen to metal), which is essentially punk's gloomier cousin. Early goth looks often embodied punk's DIY/thrifted ethos (and are really cool! I thrift a lot of my looks). I'd personally define "being a goth" as enjoyment of the music + participation in the culture (such as sharing music with goth friends, going to clubs or events, concerts, etc), though some consider enjoyment of the genre to be the only qualifier. Either way, the music is extremely vital to the scene, and the fashion evolved from both the music and the earlier stylings of punks. I wouldn't consider fashion to be a requirement tbh- if you watch music videos by The Cure and SATB you'll notice a lot of them have outfits with some pretty "ungoth" colors, like Siouxsie's bright yellow outfit in Spellbound. Fashion-based gatekeeping sucks and goes against the punk origins of the subculture. You don't have to wear 5 layers of fancy black clothes every day with fully teased hair and perfect Siouxsie-style eyeliner and own expensive Demonias to be a "real goth". A lot of us just really REALLY like to do those things ;P (but winklepickers >>> demonias imo)

2. Marilyn Manson isn't goth (though you were right to bring up his relevance to goths getting blamed for columbine, as he was often confused for a goth artist by the mainstream at the time, and iirc the shooters were manson fans). Examples of goth bands are The Cure, Bauhaus, the Sisters of Mercy, Siouxsie and the Banshees, etc, and characteristic features of the genre are an emphasis on bass, "jangly" guitar, emotional lyrics (not necessarily sadness, but certainly passionate). There are also subgenres of goth (which itself is a subgenre of postpunk, which is a subgenre of punk, which is a subgenre of rock.... yeah there's layers O_O) like darkwave (emphasis on synths- an example of darkwave is Lebanon Hanover), deathrock (goth but harder-edged, iirc this scene evolved in California (whereas "trad" goth rock evolved in the UK)- examples include Skeletal Family, 45 Grave and Cinema Strange), ethereal wave (popular in the 90s, often with operatic female vocalists and my personal favorite, some ethereal wave bands include Faith and the Muse, Love Spirals Downwards, Dead Can Dance and my underrated fav This Ascension. I also wouldn't necessarily call them a "goth band" but ethereal wave fans usually are really into Cocteau Twins lol) and more (yes, really).

3. I wouldn't call alternative one single subculture, but an umbrella term to describe multiple.

4. I think people can be SERIOUSLY overboard about gatekeeping (people who do surprise music pop quizzes are total assholes) and I think it's fine to wear goth fashion if you're not into the music (that's what the term "darkly inclined" is for!) but I do still think you should be into goth music to be considered goth. A lot of places the subcultures are formed around are music based (again, clubs and concerts). And a lot of us will be down to rec bands we like! Or you can look up goth playlists online, they're not hard to find. And if you're not into it, that's perfectly fine and you can still wear whatever you want.

tl;dr goth is a subculture with a super interesting history behind it and i thought i might as well expand on what was said here :)

I view the rise of alt culture to the mainstream as a positive. It's great to see more and more people feeling free to express themselves whether it be cause they're into the style for a moment in time or have been doing it for years

I am 47 and was and still am at heart a grunge girl.  I feel like style used to follow music more than it does these days.  Not it follows social media trends.

Alt style might be more accepted and mainstream on social media, in music, and in clothing stores, but it is not widely accepted in day to day life. I dress more on the goth side of things and I still get mean stares and hurtful comments. At one job I had a coworker start a rumor that I was possed by a demon. She started this rumor on my 1st day on the job from nothing more than how I dressed.