6:16 I find it interesting that Jen never acknowledges that Whitney was the only one we saw from MomTok visiting her and helping care for her during her last pregnancy when she was suffering through prenatal depression. I can’t tell if it’s selective memory because we aren’t shown Whitney bringing that up either (IIRC).

I’m not Mormon but I have been watching Mormon Stories Podcast for years because I enjoy listening to people who have deconstructed from a high demand religion. I have a different impression of what Zach said based on listening to hundreds of people talk about talking to the Bishop about being “worthy”. I have a feeling that what he said to Jen was about pointing out her hypocrisy and inauthenticity in terms of her SI aspirations. She wanted him to go prove his “worthiness” to the Mormon church while she was clearly not. And of course the Mormon patriarchal system would judge him for her choices as well. Of course he didn’t want to go bullshit a bishop just because she suddenly wanted him to.

I saw Jen as being very toxic. She doesn’t feel people are listening to her unless they agree with her, especially with Zach, but also with Whitney.

I’m glad for the continuity with Annmarie as well!

With Taylor, once you see that she has borderline personality disorder you’ll know exactly why she does what she does and can almost predict what she’ll do in the future.

Mason was not emasculated! He was just enjoying the free ride and skedaddled as soon as his contribution was questioned.
What was stopping him working and carving his own career??? Absolutely nothing.
100% a user.

The worst part of the stair fight is that Ever was in the room. , at her friends calling them names while they dont give her that energy back. I cannot begin to imagine what that boy has been exposed to.

Annemarie was such a thoughtful guest co-host! Thank you both for your discussion of this tough franchise. TBH my vibes as a viewer were very anti-TFP from everything that happened (at the very least, get her off TV) but I totally missed your note about the final clip of TFP as a sign of how Hulu/ABC is still choosing to uplift her. Disappointing.

Taylor’s fans are her flying monkeys and enablers. Good for Mikayla for getting out of this toxicity.

Zack is an investor in Thirst.  He had the merch hat.  He kept looking at the staff very embarrassed.   He clearly thought it would be an infomercial

Watching season 1 right now Taylor has already been a MESS. Dakota a former addict geez. Taylor didnt even ask core life values before agreeing to be his girlfriend?!

I love Annemarie

Disingenuine isnt a word

I like Taylor... DV is complex and while I don't like her actions these cycles are tough...praying true healing happens. I like Jen too..

1:06:11 Taylor has been very literally saying ahe ia better than Mayci and Mikayla online.  She may say it like "I have aura" or " your husband came to me for bedroom advice" implying Jace came to an expert or wants her, etc

1:33:19 Note that while Taylor is screaming at her friends, her and Dakota’s little boy is also in the room. Mikayla wanted to have this conversation with Taylor in another room so it wouldn't happen in front of the little boy. But Taylor seems not to care what her son sees, experiences, or witnesses. That just tells me she is in a much worse place than I thought—and I already considered her to be in a terribly bad mental state after seeing Season 3. Because even though I thought she was in a bad place mentally in Seasons 1 and 2, it clearly got worse in Season 3. That’s why I was unhappy about her being cast as the Bachelorette at the time. That feeling intensified significantly after I watched Season 4, and now she is showing us herself that my intuition was right. If the producers behind the SLOMW and Bachelor franchise cared about anything other than the money they stand to make, they would have long since stopped using Taylor as a face for their shows and ensured she received intensive psychological help—somewhere without access to social media. But the producers think a person who has been on the verge of a nervous breakdown for the past four years, or maybe longer than that, is entertaining; to me, she is just a sad, pitiable figure. The worst part is that with each new season, Taylor digs herself into an even deeper hole; the situation now is such that she barely has permission to see her children—a truly tragic state of affairs, especially for the kids, who are the real victims in all of this. But that isn't because of something that Taylor did on the show, but we have watched her getting to that place for the last 5 seasons and the people in her life have had even more evidence of her brackedown and they have said that she needs to stop for the last 5 seasons. Dakota is in a very bad place too, and he is no better than Taylor—or rather, he is no better than her when it comes to how he handles romantic relationships. However, judging by the information that has emerged during the court proceedings, Dakota seems to have done a better job than Taylor regarding the parenting course. That doesn't mean he has always been the best dad in the world, though; he has actively kept up arguments with Taylor since before their son was even born—conflicts the boy has had to witness and listen to from the very beginning. We know nothing about the father of Taylor’s other child, other than the fact that everyone says he has always been a good man and a good father; hopefully, that is the truth.

1:36:21 Taylor claims that Shania ruined her life—which is nonsense, in my opinion—because the only thing Shania did to Taylor was sleep with her ex-boyfriend and the father of her child. It wasn’t as if Taylor was in a relationship with Dakota at the time; they had broken up over a year earlier, and Taylor was preparing to star as the Bachelorette. This means Taylor was no longer with Dakota, so Shania slept with a man who was single. That might be hurtful, certainly, but it hardly ruins one's life. Taylor speaks about Shania as if they had been best friends, and frames the situation as though Shania had slept with Taylor’s long-term husband, causing a divorce. None of that is true; furthermore, Taylor herself was sleeping with Dakota at the same time, so Shania didn't disrupt that arrangement at all. However, the situation looks different when we consider Shania, Chase, and Miranda. While Shania might have been merely an acquaintance to Taylor, she was genuinely Miranda’s best friend for years. It is often overlooked in the discussion about Miranda and Chase that they aren't formally divorced—they are merely separated. Legally speaking, Miranda is still married to Chase, and they had been a couple for a very long time—unlike Taylor and Dakota. Furthermore, Shania was staying at Miranda’s place for free at the time because she was between homes; she was betraying her best friend in so many ways—and in a much deeper sense than just sleeping with the ex-boyfriend (or baby daddy) of an acquaintance. Not that Taylor doesn't have the right to be hurt by what happened between Dakota and Shania, but her feelings shouldn't be taken out on Shania or the other women around her. In fact, it would be understandable for Taylor to be angry at Dakota for sleeping with Shania, given that Dakota was simultaneously sleeping with Taylor and saying things that sparked hope and longing for something that never materialized. But again, Shania wasn't the one who put a stop to it; it was Dakota’s choice to lead Taylor on while stabbing her in the back—marking the twentieth time, or so, that he’d done so since they met about 3 or 4 years ago. In Chase’s case, however, I feel Shania is complicit, as she intentionally slept with her friend’s husband. If I were Miranda, that would certainly raise questions for me, such as: Had they slept together before? Which of them made the first move, and when did it happen? How long had they been plotting to betray me? But Shania did manage to lose Miranda’s friendship—which is understandable, given that Miranda has children with Chase and is still legally married to him, making it easier to sacrifice the relationship with Shania at this point. However, the situation is interesting because Dakota is in the room and hears everything Taylor says. Taylor claims Shania ruined her life by sleeping with Dakota, yet today Dakota and Shania are a couple. This makes me wonder: Is their relationship based on genuine factors, or is it just another way for Dakota to maintain psychological control over Taylor? Beyond that, I agree with Mikayla: If Dakota sees how vulnerable Taylor is, why on earth is he sleeping with her? And why is he sending Taylor videos of them sleeping together? This is—and has always been—a sick, toxic, and terrifying relationship, with both of them contributing to the problem in so many ways. That would be fine if it only affected them, but unfortunately, it takes the biggest toll on the children; it also heavily impacts everyone around them, as people have to walk on eggshells regarding the disaster that is Taylor and Dakota’s relationship. For the sake of the children, I hope Taylor and Dakota genuinely seek help from highly qualified psychologists, and hopefully, that will improve the situation for the kids.

42:42 As for Jen, she seems to thrive on playing the victim. In the eyes of the audience, she enjoyed that status during seasons 1 and 2. However, considering what Demi, Jess, and Zac themselves said about Jen during season 2, nothing we’ve seen from her since season 3 should come as a surprise. Since season 2, others have spoken about Jen’s character, and what they say isn't flattering. In my opinion, Jen plays a much more active role in the conflicts she has been involved in since season 1; she is simply very manipulative, so that side of her isn't always obvious to us viewers—or at least, it wasn't as apparent at the time. Many people who have rewatched the episodes—viewing them through the lens of the additional information revealed later—have noted that it is obvious right from season 1 that Jen constantly manipulates everything around her. This negatively affects her interactions and relationships with everyone, both in her marriage and in her friendships. So, even though I find Zac himself to be a very unpleasant and off-putting man, I have to say he doesn't deserve all the nasty things Jen was hurling at him in Season 5. Presumably, she had always done this behind the scenes, but she stopped watching herself around the cameras and started spewing profanities and demeaning words at him, hoping viewers would side with her. Just like she was certain would happen with Whitney—since Whitney was the most hated person in Season 1. However, Jen failed to account for the fact that, since Season 2, viewers have watched Whitney clearly working on herself on all fronts; consequently, people aren't just ready to throw Whitney under the bus for no reason. The same applies to Zac now. He was truly hated, and Jen knows that and uses it to position herself as the victim in the marriage. But she was careless, and now it’s backfiring on her; viewers are siding with Zac rather than Jen because we can see that he has really turned things around since Season 4. He likely did some self-reflection after watching Season 4 and seeing all the criticism everywhere—and it has clearly paid off. I view Jen and Zac the same way I view Taylor and Dakota; both couples engage in mutual abuse—a toxic dynamic where violence thrives and danger is present. For instance, Jen employs emotional abuse by announcing on social media every year that she is separating from Zac. Zac engages in similar emotional abuse, though not publicly—until now, that is, when Jen revealed it on the show and the couple began arguing about it openly on social media. I don’t find Demi likable, and I always felt she treated everyone very poorly. Unfortunately, however, various things she said about Taylor and Jen—and their relationships with Dakota and Zac—appear to be true. This makes me fully understand why Whitney decided to put up a protective barrier between herself and Jen. Whitney tried hard and for a long time to be Jen’s friend, only to be mistreated in return—much like what happens with Mikayla in her dealings with Taylor. I have been in similar situations myself, and the only thing you can do to preserve your own mental health is to cut ties with the person involved.

What does Taylor Swift have to do with this, tho. I find it wierd people bring her up all the time in unrelated conversations. It’s giving misogyny, as she is always somehow the evil example of something. Or the fans (a lot of them are women). The fan behaviour of defending her bad work has been annoying, but frankly the obsessive, constant referencing or unfounded criticism of her is a lot worse. It’s like a frenzy