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Ep. 111: The Mormon Testimony Problem

Truth to Mormons

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Former Mormon Bill Young argues that fast and testimony meetings commonly praise Jesus as a present-tense Savior, yet LDS doctrine places salvation outcomes in the future, creating a “testimony problem.” He asks what the LDS Jesus has saved believers from and to, and when he became their Savior, contending that since resurrection, exaltation, and assignment to a kingdom occur only after death and judgment, no living Latter-day Saint can truthfully claim a Savior “right now.” He adds that D&C 76 teaches differing degrees of divine presence across celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms, raising questions about whether many will ever live with the Father and Christ. He contrasts this with biblical Christianity’s present assurance—justification, forgiveness, peace with God, and eternal life—citing John 5, 1 John 5, Romans 5 and 8, and Colossians 1.

00:00 Testimony Meeting Phrases
00:26 The Big Unnoticed Problem
03:22 Channel Intro and Questions
03:49 What LDS Salvation Means
06:11 When Jesus Becomes Savior
08:07 Why No Present Savior
11:58 Kingdoms and Divine Presence
13:59 Biblical Present Salvation
19:51 Bible Prooftexts Explained
24:48 Assurance Not Arrogance
27:04 Drowning Man Analogy
31:08 Final Challenge and Outro

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20 Comments

@TruthToMormons Creator 1 day ago Pinned

Happy Friday TTM family! Enjoy the video, keep this one in mind for a witnessing approach to LDS, and have a great weekend! Your TTM Host will be in Upper Peninsula Michigan, enjoying some fall temps, colors, and harvesting some ruffed grouse. Maybe some picks later on the Instagram Channel.

@hanichay1163 1 day ago

A young Mormon getting ready for his mission said, without Jesus I could never hope to become like him. This is all Jesus is to them. A role model. A mentor. A coach. Not the Lamb of God who takes away their sins. You have to be convicted before you even begin to know who Jesus Christ is. Good job, Bill.

@takeeverythoughtcaptive6580 1 day ago

I've found it useful to share the "spiritual witnesses" video with people essentially bearing their testimonies from numerous different religions. Often people stuck inside the system don't even consider whether personal feelings might not perfectly correspond with objective reality.

Scriptures that help are of course Jeremiah 17: 9 showing the inaccuracy of the human heart, but also Proverbs 14: 12, which indicates that belief can be fatally wrong.

Another good illustration is that even holy people like young Samuel can misinterpret spiritual experiences, attributing the Lord's voice to Eli.

Regarding the story of the burning hearts in Luke with the two men on the road to Emmaus, it's helpful to explain that this is the simple human happiness found in Psalm 1 that derives from having ones mind transformed by the Word of God and not conforming to the pattern of the world (they were walking by sight and not by faith before Jesus reminded them what scripture said). Furthermore, the Holy Spirit had not been given yet, neither symbolically as in John 20:21) nor the actual day of Pentecost.

A gentle reminder that "God is greater than our hearts" can help remind Mormons, to discriminate in favour of the Bible in case of contradiction with personal feelings.

@Lapacca1103 19 hours ago

The mormon can not understand @ 26:25

If any of these questions begin with " I " they have gone astray... This is where the rubber meets the road... It is in " HE " ONLY.
We as His creation bring nothing to the table. Only through the adoption do we become children of God. Who draws up these pages of adoption? The adoptee? No the one who has purchased the possession with His blood, as pointed out is in the past tense now for those who believe in Him. It is strange how twisted the LDS Perspective has minimalized this idea to some sort of Rocky road that must be persevered through to the end, AS IF ANYONE COULD ATAIN IT!

There is only one who lived the life we can't, has the grace to give, the authority to save unto His will...and who could do it with the love that transform's the broken sinner unto a soul that could have peace in THIS LIFE, now and forever.
Not your brother, ( I pray you never discount Him to that! )

Peace be with the one that understands and lives

1 Corinthians 15: 1-4

MARKOS

@lauralynne1483 1 day ago

Yes! As a Never-LDS who's been in weekly (if not daily) dialogue with LDS for eleven years and as one who's studied their doctrines voraciously, I've come to the same, no-present-Savior conclusion as you, Bill.

@hanichay1163 1 day ago

My Mormon loved one admits that the gospel means Jesus saves her from her sins. But then she says he “enables” her to go on to exaltation. Just like in your drowning analogy., there is so much above and beyond the cross that the Mormon has to hopefully accomplish on their own.

So I wonder which kingdom she would get to just with Jesus saving her from her sins— if needed. It can’t be the terrestrial because that is for people who were not valiant in the testimony of Christ. So really, merely believing Jesus saves you from your sins doesn’t get you anywhere special in Mormonism!

@BundokCowboy 1 day ago

It's Friday!

@MattTheBandGuy 1 day ago

Emotionalism, Modern Gnosticism, and modern religious philosophy…..mingled with scripture.

It also exists in New Age and New Thought congregations as in “progressive” Christianity.

@lcwalker2920 2 hours ago

The guy with the white hair in the second testimony looked like he was about to go off into sleepy land.

Here's my question: Why do they all sound the same? I never thought about how much I copied the voices that went before me. Same inflections. Same general statements. Same tears timed perfectly.

@CruciformCrusader 1 day ago

So the "salvation" isn't something that can be boasted about, but the proximity to Christ and Heavenly Father totally can be boasted about?

@kevins4254 16 hours ago

Testimonies are a dime a dozen.

@sheepdog5799 23 hours ago

Mormonism is not grounded in facts, all of it is completely subjective.

@jerrymonk7012 20 hours ago

Amazing content. Mormons get upset when we Christians point out these differences. But Mormons worship a Mormon Christ. Not the Christ of traditional Christianity. Their Christ can morph into something new anytime a new head of the church, a Mormon prophet wants to invent a new, totally Unchristian Christ. Their church is a church of ever changing doctrine. Not at all what Christianity teaches

@jaynannyanez1809 1 day ago

We are saved from our sins

@deadcityhauntedhouse9132 23 hours ago

Here is another early church father disagreeing with TTM stating that both faith and works are necessary and also that the heavenly Kingdom has three separations.
Clement of Alexandria (153-217)
And this is to be taken in a magnanimous and worthy acceptation, along with also the recompense and accompaniment of works. So that when we hear, “Thy faith hath saved thee,” we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatever shall be saved, unless also works follow. But it was to the Jews alone that He spoke this utterance, who kept the law and lived blamelessly, who wanted only faith in the Lord. No one, then, can be a believer and at the same time be licentious; but though he quit the flesh, he must put off the passions, so as to be capable of reaching his own mansion.

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed. To the point Solomon says, “For there shall be given to him the choice grace of faith, and a more pleasant lot in the temple of the Lord.” For the comparative shows that there are lower parts in the temple of God, which is the whole Church. And the superlative remains to be conceived, where the Lord is. These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel—the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to “a perfect man,” according to the image of the Lord.

@chadswans7623 10 hours ago

Provocative video. I would offer the 2nd Anointing as LDS assurance of exaltation. Thoughts?

@MatthewB45 1 day ago

I was just having this discussion. "Testimony" is conditioning. LDS are taught from a young age on the importance of testimony. And to never let anything shake or weaken it.

Furthermore, Testimony is seen as a sign of a real and true Christian. If you don't have a Testimony you are lacking and there are real implications. Much like Pentecostals who put an emphasis on speaking in tongues, if you set this expectation you WILL see members exhibit these experiences and behaviours. I don't doubt there is real sincerity behind their Testimony. But they will never recognize it's cause is sociological, not revelatory.

@JeffRatcliffe-o8b 20 hours ago

I m ten minutes in and have no idea what you are talking about.

@deadcityhauntedhouse9132 1 day ago

Hebrew 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
The verse states unto all them that obey him, not all them that declare him as their Savior.

@Coastal1931 3 hours ago

Are you saying I shoulxn’t study and pray, seeking for answers from God on religious matters? This seems a foolish position to take from a religious commentator.