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The 'Torn' Debate: Why Are We Losing Members?

Ether's Elephant

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I sat down with Jeff Strong, author of Torn, and Jacob Hansen from ‪@thoughtfulfaith2020‬ to discuss why people are leaving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the United States? Church retention discussion. Jacob Hansen & Jeff Strong: Why People Leave the Church. Jeff Strong & Jacob Hansen Expose Why Members Leave. Jeff Strong & Jacob Hansen Expose Church Retention Crisis. Jacob Hansen & Jeff Strong Settle the Church's Biggest Debate

Rylan hosts Jacob and Jeff to discuss Jeff’s book “Torn,” its strong reception, and criticisms from both post-Mormon and orthodox audiences. They debate what drives LDS disaffiliation and retention problems in the U.S., contrasting internal LDS culture issues with broader secularization and arguing the book’s data is not causal or generalizable but useful for starting conversations and strengthening relationships. Jeff frames his aim as holding up a mirror, focusing on what members can control, and separating doctrine from cultural caricatures (e.g., “bomb shelter” church, prosperity-style promises). Jacob emphasizes worldview “lenses,” preparing members to confront secular ideas, and restoring a larger Christian vision of sacrifice and meaning. They conclude that agency prevents fully stopping people from leaving, but churches and families can improve roots, reduce “wrong reasons,” preserve relationships, and play the long game.

00:00 Cold Open Banter
00:39 Introducing Torn
01:35 Book Reception
04:52 Jacob’s Critique
08:25 More or Less Truth
11:40 Method Limits Retention
14:35 Culture vs Secular Soil
17:57 Vision Over Therapy
24:59 Mission President Lessons
27:19 Worldview Lens Solutions
32:29 Prepared Not Protected
34:49 Preparing Youth for Secularism
36:00 Caricatures of Jesus
37:27 Culture vs Doctrine Promises
40:43 Leaders Fallible Work Continues
44:11 Trials Forge Faith
46:19 Can We Prevent Leaving
48:29 Christian Antidote to Secularism
50:18 Best Chance and Long Game
53:47 Relationships Over Belief
56:51 Stepping Away and Caricatures
01:01:31 Protestant Influences in LDS
01:05:24 If Church Wasn't True
01:13:51 Why Stay and Closing Thanks

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20 Comments

@niroms8199 3 months ago (edited)

I was 22 yrs old when I joined back in 87. I did not believe in God, felt bad for people who did. When I met the missionaries I took what they taught very seriously. They even made it clear I held the responsibility for my activity in the church. I am now 62 yrs old and I am still floored thinking God is real, prophets, BoM... everything informative about the Plan of Salvation. I took it seriously from the time I accepted to listen to them from my door. I often wonder how many people do not understand the message and what it means if it is all true... and it is 100 % true. I feel so lucky knowing what I know.

@Cyle_1 3 months ago

I’ve had a hard time reconciling the self reported reasons for leaving with what I’ve seen in real life. I already know how this is going to sound. And I think people have made it sound this way for specific reasons.

I’ve known many people who have left the church. All of my siblings left each for different reasons. I graduated high school in 2013. There were probably one or two hundred in my class that elected for missionary service. I would be surprised if 20% of us were still in the church.

And for almost each and every person that I have a personal relationship with who have left. Really had differing lifestyles conflicts well before they encountered the history or doctrines and ces pdfs or whatever they found problematic that ultimately ended up being their cited reason for leaving.
There was a deep dissonance between how they were living and what their religious beliefs said for a good amount of time. Once they found their reason to leave. That was just the final reason they needed to walk out the door. Their lifestyles left long before though.

@halodisciple8459 3 months ago (edited)

Culture and belief may be the reason why I found myself in the LDS church. But testimony is why I remain in it. A testimony is greater than belief, it's a confirmation from the Spirit.

@timwrightfamily740 3 months ago

Popping the corn now! I heard Jeff’s lecture on this and was so impressed with it that I started taking notes and went over the notes the next day really well done. Then I heard Jacob take on it and I thought wow that’s super obvious of how the world is affecting, latter-day Saints!

And now I have the thrill of watching them battle it out so I don’t have to😂😂😂

@Widnat5 3 months ago

11:10 ❤ “The older I get, the more humble I am about what I think I know… the more I know, the more I know I don’t know”. It’s crazy how our perspective can change about something that seemed so solid.

@briancrandall948 3 months ago

I think it’s important to remember that people are at very different places in life, with different levels of understanding, strength, and capacity. Too often, we compare ourselves to those who seem to have endless energy, high functioning lives, and everything perfectly put together.

But life is a struggle. We grow weary. We can lose hope. We may lose important relationships and sources of support. Sometimes what we need most isn’t a bomb shelter, but a sanctuary—a place of peace and safety from the storm.

I spent my career in the military as a psychologist, and I’ve seen some of the very best and very worst of what human beings can do to one another. I’ve learned that there is a time to fight and a time to rest, and that we have a responsibility to watch out for one another along the way.

When we’re young, we do need to face challenges and hardships. Those experiences can strengthen us and prepare us for the greater trials that inevitably come. But we were never meant to carry life’s burdens alone.

In the end, it’s about coming to Christ, knowing Christ, and finding peace in Christ. He doesn’t always remove the storm, but He can become our refuge within it.

@jenniferstapley6727 1 month ago

Jeff is so incredibly humble, intelligent, articulate, experienced and wise. He presents information so open ended so a person can come to their own conclusions. He brought out so many great points. It bothered me that Jacob & Ryland were more concerned with their opinions than acknowledging the wisdom and knowledge and experience and data that Jeff has/had. Thank you Jeff. You are a light to a lot of us “older members” (50/60 somethings) that want to understand what is going on with our children and grandchildren. You have enlightened me on numerous podcasts and through reading your book.

@Firefly017 3 months ago

This was such a good convo. Thank you so much for having it and sharing it. Love you all so much!!♥️

@raulislife283 3 months ago

I’m so glad I grew in the hood as a member bc I saw so many things that made cling onto the gospel of Jesus Christ. The priesthood in my ward knew that we struggled with the streets and they always made sure we were part of the church activities. Yes I had my moments but I thank the gospel for helping me to realize at a young age to know what really is important. When I went on my mission I enjoyed every moment of it and yes there were hard times but I endured and I remember when I saw the elders that couldn’t handle the pressure they wanted to go home or were disodidiant. I was sorry for them bc they never had the chance before the mish to grow up and handle hard times. I just want to say that I’m proof that the gospel helps in the hard times and being out of your comfort zone.

@Latterdaylevelup 3 months ago

Such a good conversation. Thanks for getting them on to talk about this Rylan.

@mrtheasley 3 months ago

Thanks for bringing them together, Rylan. This was a really great, really important conversation.

@dannywilson5115 3 months ago

You nailed it with the “lens” analogy. “Where there is no vision, the people perish…” Proverbs 29:18

@AllisKB 2 months ago

Jeff Strong was my mission president for the last 3ish months of my mission. Feels weird to see him here.

@baldeagle-cq2jl 3 months ago (edited)

" As I get older the more I realize the more I know the more I don't know', pretty much sums up everything. Priceless.I was able to finish listening to the whole podcast and add,I loved Jeff's view in so many ways. Our closeness in age might have something to do with it.🙂

@Mendlesham-fu4lm 3 months ago

Thanks for hosting this discussion. Looking forward to Jeff posting his two disaffiliation reports on his website's research library. Hoping they clear up some questions about his data.

@ldscatholic 2 weeks ago

I appreciate Jeff's wisdom and humility. I think the issue regarding the topic being discussed really has to do with the apparent hypocrisy and lack of consistency, as observed and experienced by the members, of the LDS Church's leadership.

@amt5911 3 months ago

University and College seems to be a huge factor.

@chapmanchaps 3 months ago

This was a very helpful conversation for me, as I was left unsatisfied before with previous interviews with Jeff Strong—I felt like there were gaps that were filled now. Thank you for having this more all-encompassing conversation!!

@Enmyspotted 3 months ago

This was the craziest video I have ever seen. I LOVE the "vision" framing. We need the vision emphasis!!

@tracykeeney8931 3 months ago

What an awesome discussion! Really enjoyed this one! I wasn’t familiar with this channel, but I followed Jacob and Jeff here. Glad to have found you!

Jacob- I would LOVE for you to specifically address the subject of penal substitution and explain how church members have conflated the Protestant view with the LDS view.