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152: Is Israeli society tearing itself apart? With Micah Goodman

Ask Haviv Anything

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Most Israelis agree on almost everything that matters. So why does it feel like the country is coming apart?
Two weeks before election day, Dr. Micah Goodman returns with two stories about Israel that contradict each other and are both true.
We look at two Israels: the one held together by sacrifice and solidarity, the one consumed by grievance, fear, and political loyalty – and the millions of Israelis who live in both mental worlds simultaneously. And we ask a harder question: How much of our division is real and how much is cultivated by leaders whose power depends on it?
A conversation about Israel’s hidden consensus, its failing politics, and the peace Israelis need to make with one another.

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This episode is sponsored by the Tikvah’s Millstone Scholars program. A unique program designed for those middle-school years when young people begin deciding what they believe and who they want to become.

For parents and grandparents wondering what comes after the bar or bat mitzvah, Millstone offers substantive, serious learning. This isn’t more Hebrew school; it’s a selective national honors program for seventh- and eighth-graders. Students meet weekly in small cohorts to study Jewish civilization, modern Israel, and the Jewish ideas that inspired America. Through primary sources and guided, seminar discussion, they develop the confidence to become proud Jews, proud Americans, and future leaders.

Millstone offers in-person and online cohorts across thirty cities. Classes begin the week of October 18. You can learn more and apply at https://tikvah.org/haviv .

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Musical intro by Adam Ben Amitai.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the social and political currents in Israel
04:09 The new consensus and deep divides in Israeli society
07:00 Technology, territory, and the surprise of October 7th
09:24 Myth of a shrinking army and the need for land
12:17 The undeterrable enemy and the new security paradigm
15:40 The crisis of military service and societal cohesion
16:36 The collapse of myths and the new political architecture
20:11 Unity in Israeli society and the political polarization
22:58 The Israeli consensus and the future of political stability
27:17 Historical narratives and the Israeli right’s identity
28:12 The Mizrachi and Ashkenazi divide and their political implications
30:14 The disengagement from Gaza and religious Zionism
33:36 Demographic shifts and the future of Israeli society
35:01 The political climate crisis and the cycle of crisis
36:26 The American influence on Israeli polarization
40:30 The epistemic crisis and the illusion of control
43:22 The future of Israeli political architecture
45:01 Historical lessons from past crises and elections
48:44 The bottom-up solidarity and Israeli resilience
50:37 The narratives of division and unity in Israel
54:17 The systemic issues and the need for trust
01:00:00 The artificial nature of Israeli divisions
01:01:02 The American polarization pattern and its Israeli reflection
01:02:30 The hope for a new political architecture in Israel
01:04:21 The importance of trust and shared narratives
01:05:45 The cycle of crisis and the need for systemic change
01:07:13 The resilience and agency of ordinary Israelis
01:08:11 The failure of leadership and the hope for unity

20 Comments

@ezekielcarsella 1 day ago

Everytime I think i know a lot about the history of Israel or the Middle East, I have this show and others to tell me more! Absolutely incredible episode.

@larisad 2 hours ago

Amazing though-provoking and inspiring conversation. Every time I listen, I think you can’t top that and every time Haviv and his guests do. Thank you!

@spiritofseventysix1155 4 hours ago

Thanks for posting!

@joshuasarfati5520 18 hours ago

You are both such cool characters.
Such a pleasure to listen

@b1234maryhadalittlelamb 1 day ago

Fantastic articulation of the origins and underlying views that drive the tensions in Israeli politics

@luca6635 3 hours ago

Such a great conversation, thanks

@37davidg 1 day ago

Peace and love to you both

@amirhandzel8602 1 day ago

The problem with Gaza was not lack of intelligence collection: Isarel obtained almost all necessary information; the problem was conceptual and lack of imagination about what's possible.

@blueberry3168 12 hours ago

Very enlightening conversation ❤ from Australia ❤

@l.montel5580 2 hours ago

We love you Haviv. Shabbat Shalom!

@raveh2009 1 day ago

Re not knowing what was going on in Gaza after the 2005 withdrawal: if anyone had wanted to calculate the amount of cement going into Gaza over the past 20 years and to compare that with new buildings arising there they could've calculated how much was going into tunnels. But it's difficult to give up making easy money.

@alaraadilow4979 1 day ago

This talk was so ensightfull Micah Goodman, you are so erudite. I love hearing you speak about these historical narratives, I hope to have a change to hear the english podcast edition. All the best!

@seviwolfowicz4110 55 minutes ago

Good discussion

@blabala12345 1 hour ago

The story about the corrupt and lazy government against the down-to-earth, heroic citizen is such a tiring cliche. The probable reality is that decision-makers work much harder and lose a lot more sleep than the average person

@barmoleydd6300 21 hours ago

Is it possible and what is the way to prevent people rising through the ranks to join ranks of corrupted elite? How filter out the people which has tendency for corruption?

@lizbethglickman2725 1 day ago (edited)

Thank you, Haviv, as always. Micah has a unique way of navigating Jewish history, which sounds crazy to the uneducated but it's all true even though we keep arguing about it. I always tear up on the subject of the Altalena. Both were correct and the path taken.... I just cannot say it was correct. I cannot take sides any more than I can divide my Ashkenazi part from my Sephardi part. Got to keep it together.
And the conceptcia..... I was yelling about this since 2014.
Long-winded reply.... Sorry. Cannot help it. Am Jewish.

@pamelal1237 1 day ago

Ben Gurion fired on young Jews bringing arms to Israel ! Many died Menachem Begin did not want to leave the boat and they had to knock him out to take him off the boat ! Sadly Ben Gurion disliked Menachem Begin ! Begin was a man of integrity! My family knew him and his family well ! Amazing how many people in podcasts mention both Begin and Jabotinsky , sometimes they are non Jews !

@CBSalsberg 20 hours ago

The explanations for Israeli division and potential unity are interesting, but more convincing would be their application to a particular, current division, building in E1.

@JohnDoe-su8ew 14 hours ago

1:05:57
How to build a politcal system where the incentive is the mainstream rather than the radicals:
1) increase the electoral threshold percentage (אחוז חסימה) to something extraordinarily high, 8.5% or even 12.5%.
2) introduce rank choice voting. Votes for parties who would otherwise be wasted on not meeting the threshold still count by going to other parties.

You'll get "saner" politics, but minority protections will fade and governments will be vulnerable to becoming rigid, rusted and then brittle.

Another option is to
1) Lower the electoral threshold significantly, but increase the "mandate threshold" (expanded below)
2) Use rank choice voting
3) Unless parties reach a certain mandate threshold, they'll be forced to merge into the larger, mainstream parties that do pass the mandate threshold (e.g. getting 15 mandates), merging according to rank choices (first party to pass the mandate threshold among the ranks).
4) Parties that pass the electoral threshold but fail the mandate threshold must vote according to the majority of the members of the bigger party they're merging into, BUT they get X vetoes per year, vetoes which can nullify the entire new merged parties votes when voting in the Knesset.

Voters vote on X's value in general election.

Increase X if politics is becoming unresponsive, reduce X if politics is becoming reactionary.

@Judymontel 4 hours ago

Minutes 31-32: Hell, I'm allergic to Netanyahu myself and I'm an unaffiliated centrist who belongs exactly nowhere. Before the disengagement, when there were calls for a national referendum (משאל עם) about so major a decision it was Netanyahu's vote against it that brought it down. It was Sharon of the Likud who made and implemented the decision. The loyalty of anyone from the settlements to Netanyahu baffles me. He and others sold the settler's in the Gaza territories down the river when Sharon was the same person who invited them to settle there, telling them they were vital to national security. Plus (back to Bibi), having ANYONE as PM for so long is incredibly unhealthy for our political system and overall viability as a nation.