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Praying to Saints: DEBUNKING @TruthUnites, @MikeWinger, and @AllieBethStuckey

Alex Sorin

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There are many myths floating around about the Orthodox doctrine of seeking the intercessions of Christians in heaven. Most of them are spread by seemingly well-intentioned non-denom, evangelical influencers like ‪@TruthUnites‬, ‪@MikeWinger‬, and ‪@AllieBethStuckey‬ who assert that invoking members of the divine council is some post-apostolic pagan aCcReTiOn. Nonetheless, Orthodox, evangelical, and Jewish scholars alike all agree this is an ancient Jewish practice -- not a pagan accretion. In this video, I discuss the framework for understanding the doctrine of seeking the intercessions of the saints and I refute the most common objections and misconceptions to this practice.

Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
1:56 Roadmap
3:00 Porous boundary
4:15 Divine council
10:00 We join the divine council
13:58 Invoking divine council members
18:08 Psalms invoking divine council members
19:10 Calling out to Elijah
20:09 Second-temple Jews prayed to divine council members
22:56 The Shepherd of Hermas
24:52 Archaeological finds
25:40 The positive case
26:30 But I can DIRECTLY go to God
29:10 But they're DEAD
31:31 But they're not OMNISCIENT
32:28 But there's ONE MEDIATOR
33:40 But pray means WORSHIP

20 Comments

@issaavedra 10 months ago

I always roll my eyes when Ortlund, the evangelical pastor in the church with a band, is "worried" about historical accretions.

@LMPM0909 10 months ago

Just hearing Mike Winger in the opening say that our Holy Theotokos is “dead” is like a knife to the heart. 😢 Lord have mercy ☦️

@YaMomsLasagna 10 months ago

Bro dropped another certified hood classic

@stephenkeddy 10 months ago

Protestants arguing anything from the first second and third centuries is hilarious

@breadcrumbsmadeit 10 months ago

Funny how some evangelicals will talk about guardian angels for each person but then reject the saints

@Router_z 10 months ago

Alex literally can’t miss. So concise and extremely thorough at the same time. May God bless your efforts, Alex!

@bobbobb4804 10 months ago

Interestingly enough, Samaritan litugical texts also have prayers to the saints. They split from Jews long before Christ established the church, and they’ve maintained their practices without undergoing influence from later Talmudic developments.

@perelandra35813 10 months ago

Dr Heiser gave me a lot of his time for no reason back before anyone knew him. He’s a huge part of the reason I’m Orthodox. The evangelical “scholars” that argue against his work now are waaay out over their skis.

Just wanted to take the opportunity to give Mike some honor here.

@andys3035 10 months ago

One of my favorite passages on this subject is Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭22‬-‭24‬“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

Notice how this talks about the church being comprised of the angels, the general assembly and SPIRITS of just men made PERFECT. I’m not sure how Protestants don’t see this. They literally have a Nestorian ecclesiology where there are two bodies of Christ.

@cyrusnelsen986 10 months ago

Great video, Alex! So happy to see that you mention Dr. Michael Heiser in this video. It was actually his work "The Unseen Realm" that brought me into Eastern Orthodoxy, as it (probably unintentionally) taught about theosis, the connection of the spiritual and physical world (Divine Council), and led me to question Penal Substitutionary Atonement. I realized that no Protestant denomination, historic or Evangelical, created room for, or taught, these doctrines, yet they were found in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

@CleavetoAntiquity 10 months ago

New Alex vid. Nice

@bobbobb4804 10 months ago

The angelic liturgy found in the Qumran scrolls (which were composed from the 3rd-1st centuries BC) is filled with invocations to the angels, and the book of Enoch (written in the 3rd century BC) and jubilees (written in the mid 2nd century BC) also have explicit examples of invocation and intercession.

@OrthoAndu 10 months ago (edited)

Hey! Awesome vid. As you probably know, here in Romania protestants have been preying on post-communist orthodox that have had zero theological education with exactly this type of argument: “oh look you guys pray to idols, come to our church we have american cookies”. Maybe you can make a video in Romanian at some point as well, lots of people need to hear this kind of argument here! Doamne ajută! 🙏

@jostmeify 9 months ago

Excellent video, I’m Catholic but greatly appreciate the Orthodox perspective. It’s funny when people like Ortlund talk about ‘accretion after the 1st century’ when core Protestantism theology is an accretion after the 16th century.

@Chasingtheosis33AD 10 months ago

Ive been in catechism for a few weeks now, inquiring since July.
Studying Dyer’s apologetics for a while now. This is the most I’ve absorbed thus far thank you brother

@gotellmedia9137 10 months ago

Probably the best video I’ve ever seen addressing this. Unreal work Alex 🔥☦️

@michaelbanda9993 10 months ago

brothers i think i might become orthodox

@willtheperson7224 10 months ago

Gavin Ortlund saying something Orthodox is an "accretion" is commonplace - but dismissing them as pagan is a low blow...

showing he's arguably worse than the likes of a Fundementalist Baptist, at least they're honest in their bad will, Ortlund puts a nice guy facade, yet argues the same slanders!

@Loha64 10 months ago

That "Anglican-Catholic" clip always gets me 😂😭

@TrailBlazerAZ 6 months ago

This is genuinely the best video I’ve found on this topic. Thank you so much, Alex. This has given me a better understanding personally, and given me something digestible to share with my Protestant friend who’s inquiring into Orthodoxy and struggling with this topic.