12 Things to Know Before Buying a Used Piano
ThePianoforever
145,285 views
If you like music, you might want to check out my second channel "Milan Recording Studios". Feel free to subscribe and hit the bell icon if you want to!
@milanrecordingstudios9042
James takes the process step by step on what we look for when purchasing a used piano. If you use this system for reviewing a piano you will likely be very happy with your purchase.
20 Comments
@myotherusername9224 6 years ago
1.Tuned well - out of tune can hide voicing errors
2. bridge - look for cracks in black painted area, usually perpendicular to strings, makes bridge pin move (older Baldwins esp). Typically happens in treble area of the bridge.
3. soundboard - hold very bright light on string side of soundboard, helper looks from other side for light shining through. Cracks can change the sound of the piano. if the crack is very narrow, can make a buzzing sound.
4. hammers - check wear, depth of grooves. should have lots of felt left, no chunks missing or loose staples. At the ends of the keyboards, there will be less felt installed because those notes are played less
5. strings. copper wound steel bass strings are first to fail - if lid left open, dust accumulates. holds moisture, so leave the lid down as much as possible. Strings are usually replaced every 20 years on a concert piano but in a home piano, possibly never if the strings are in good condition.
6. tuning pins - normally tarnished with age but no effect on sound. leave lid down prevents rust. Very badly rusted pins possibly stuck so tuning impossible
7. Exterior cosmetic finish - look at all sides.
8. keys - cosmetics: ivory highly desirable - pleasant texture - fingers don't slip but prone to chipping; chips may have sharp edges which can poke your fingers and interfere with playing. plastic keys are durable but a little slick.
9. pedals - there is a variety of effects, you have to check to know which your piano has.
Right pedal - 'sustain'; Must lift all dampers off the strings so they all ring freely, notes are “held” and keep vibrating. allowing sympathetic resonance in the whole piano. Holding down the sustain pedal while playing results in a rich tonal quality, causing the music to “flow” in a legato style.
middle pedal does different things on different pianos, a wide variety of possible effects. early 1900s piano, middle pedal may be absent
GPs - middle pedal: 'sostenuto'; lets the piano player selectively sustain certain keys or chords. if you play a key or keys and then depress the sostenuto, only the keys you play will sustain and there will be no sympathetic resonance in any other strings. These notes remain sustained until you let go of the pedal. If you keep the pedal pressed down and play other notes at the same time, those other notes will play normally without any sustain.
On cheaper Grands or uprights, sostenuto only raises the bass side of the dampers (bass sustain) - a limited form of sostenuto because sometimes you want to only emphasize the bass notes. Some early 1900s high end uprights, the middle pedal will give sostenuto on any strings played. Sometimes, the middle pedal is a 'practice pedal'; it lowers a strip of felt across all strings. Was used to quiet the instrument before electronic keyboards were invented. On some pianos, you push down and then to the left to lock the practice pedal in place so you don't have to hold it there with your foot.
left pedal - on a GP, 'una corda' ('one string') or 'soft pedal'; moves entire action to the side the distance of one string. A 'due corde' moves the action two strings. Playing with the una corda pedal depressed gives your music a softer, veiled tone with a different color, because a different part of the hammer with softer, less worn felt is striking the strings. This change in voice is more noticeable, the more the piano has been played.
On upright pianos the action isn’t actually shifted. This means upright pianos don’t have a true una corda pedal, but rather, a pedal often called the “half-blow pedal” since it moves the hammers closer to the piano’s strings (creating a softer sound). instead of hitting each string from the full distance, the hammer only travels half the distance, making it quieter and quicker. Remove the bottom panel on an upright piano and check to see that all parts of the mechanism are in place and functioning.
10. Dampers - all must lift off the strings equally when pedal is depressed. All felts must be in place. When you let off a key, the sound should stop. On an older piano, a string may 'sizzle' or 'buzz', muted but not fully damped. In that case, the dampers may have become hard and crusty over time so they engage the string more weakly than a new damper. Lowest bass notes are less damped The copper wound, thick bass strings are more massive and store more kinetic energy. But because all dampers are the same size, the damper on a smaller string is larger relative to the string than the same size damper on a larger string. So the damper on a large bass string is less effective; damping takes longer.
11. Play every note to make sure they all sound clearly, in tune, and sustain when held; all are damped with no buzzing when you let off. The note should swell and then gradually decay. Pay particular attention to the 6th and 7th octave. In the treble, the notes may decay too rapidly. The last few notes at either end are commonly out of tune. If one note in particular is way out of tune, it's unlikely the tuner missed that note, it's more likely a bad pin.Make sure all unisons are in tune. When two strings are perfectly in tune the attack part of the note will sound harder or tighter. The harmonics (partials) also will be more noticeable thus augmenting the "clarity" or "brightness" of the sound.As soon as one of the strings are getting "off", the sound become "duller" and less definite. Overall, a not so perfectly tuned piano will sound less satisfying and will loose definition. (definition = every note can be distinguished clearly)
12. Action - critical; your link to the music. Best tested by an experienced player. Not just absence of mechanical defects; the effect of the action is subjective, and relative to your strength, style and skill. If you switch from a soft action to a stiffer action, it takes more effort, and vice-versa. It takes playing experience to feel and hear the difference between great and mediocre action. Consider the piano's environment when you play it - high ceilings and hard surfaces in a big room will make the piano sound brighter and more powerful , and vice-versa.
2. bridge - look for cracks in black painted area, usually perpendicular to strings, makes bridge pin move (older Baldwins esp). Typically happens in treble area of the bridge.
3. soundboard - hold very bright light on string side of soundboard, helper looks from other side for light shining through. Cracks can change the sound of the piano. if the crack is very narrow, can make a buzzing sound.
4. hammers - check wear, depth of grooves. should have lots of felt left, no chunks missing or loose staples. At the ends of the keyboards, there will be less felt installed because those notes are played less
5. strings. copper wound steel bass strings are first to fail - if lid left open, dust accumulates. holds moisture, so leave the lid down as much as possible. Strings are usually replaced every 20 years on a concert piano but in a home piano, possibly never if the strings are in good condition.
6. tuning pins - normally tarnished with age but no effect on sound. leave lid down prevents rust. Very badly rusted pins possibly stuck so tuning impossible
7. Exterior cosmetic finish - look at all sides.
8. keys - cosmetics: ivory highly desirable - pleasant texture - fingers don't slip but prone to chipping; chips may have sharp edges which can poke your fingers and interfere with playing. plastic keys are durable but a little slick.
9. pedals - there is a variety of effects, you have to check to know which your piano has.
Right pedal - 'sustain'; Must lift all dampers off the strings so they all ring freely, notes are “held” and keep vibrating. allowing sympathetic resonance in the whole piano. Holding down the sustain pedal while playing results in a rich tonal quality, causing the music to “flow” in a legato style.
middle pedal does different things on different pianos, a wide variety of possible effects. early 1900s piano, middle pedal may be absent
GPs - middle pedal: 'sostenuto'; lets the piano player selectively sustain certain keys or chords. if you play a key or keys and then depress the sostenuto, only the keys you play will sustain and there will be no sympathetic resonance in any other strings. These notes remain sustained until you let go of the pedal. If you keep the pedal pressed down and play other notes at the same time, those other notes will play normally without any sustain.
On cheaper Grands or uprights, sostenuto only raises the bass side of the dampers (bass sustain) - a limited form of sostenuto because sometimes you want to only emphasize the bass notes. Some early 1900s high end uprights, the middle pedal will give sostenuto on any strings played. Sometimes, the middle pedal is a 'practice pedal'; it lowers a strip of felt across all strings. Was used to quiet the instrument before electronic keyboards were invented. On some pianos, you push down and then to the left to lock the practice pedal in place so you don't have to hold it there with your foot.
left pedal - on a GP, 'una corda' ('one string') or 'soft pedal'; moves entire action to the side the distance of one string. A 'due corde' moves the action two strings. Playing with the una corda pedal depressed gives your music a softer, veiled tone with a different color, because a different part of the hammer with softer, less worn felt is striking the strings. This change in voice is more noticeable, the more the piano has been played.
On upright pianos the action isn’t actually shifted. This means upright pianos don’t have a true una corda pedal, but rather, a pedal often called the “half-blow pedal” since it moves the hammers closer to the piano’s strings (creating a softer sound). instead of hitting each string from the full distance, the hammer only travels half the distance, making it quieter and quicker. Remove the bottom panel on an upright piano and check to see that all parts of the mechanism are in place and functioning.
10. Dampers - all must lift off the strings equally when pedal is depressed. All felts must be in place. When you let off a key, the sound should stop. On an older piano, a string may 'sizzle' or 'buzz', muted but not fully damped. In that case, the dampers may have become hard and crusty over time so they engage the string more weakly than a new damper. Lowest bass notes are less damped The copper wound, thick bass strings are more massive and store more kinetic energy. But because all dampers are the same size, the damper on a smaller string is larger relative to the string than the same size damper on a larger string. So the damper on a large bass string is less effective; damping takes longer.
11. Play every note to make sure they all sound clearly, in tune, and sustain when held; all are damped with no buzzing when you let off. The note should swell and then gradually decay. Pay particular attention to the 6th and 7th octave. In the treble, the notes may decay too rapidly. The last few notes at either end are commonly out of tune. If one note in particular is way out of tune, it's unlikely the tuner missed that note, it's more likely a bad pin.Make sure all unisons are in tune. When two strings are perfectly in tune the attack part of the note will sound harder or tighter. The harmonics (partials) also will be more noticeable thus augmenting the "clarity" or "brightness" of the sound.As soon as one of the strings are getting "off", the sound become "duller" and less definite. Overall, a not so perfectly tuned piano will sound less satisfying and will loose definition. (definition = every note can be distinguished clearly)
12. Action - critical; your link to the music. Best tested by an experienced player. Not just absence of mechanical defects; the effect of the action is subjective, and relative to your strength, style and skill. If you switch from a soft action to a stiffer action, it takes more effort, and vice-versa. It takes playing experience to feel and hear the difference between great and mediocre action. Consider the piano's environment when you play it - high ceilings and hard surfaces in a big room will make the piano sound brighter and more powerful , and vice-versa.
@gcsusetyo 5 years ago (edited)
Recap:
1. Is the piano in tune?
2. Are there cracks in the bridge?
3. Are there cracks in the soundboard? Shine a bright flashlight over every inch, and have a friend sit under the piano to check if any light pierces through.
4. Are the hammers intact? Do they look normal, grooves the right depth, felt in place, nothing frayed?
5. Are the strings clean and in good condition?
6. Are the tuning pins normal coloured? Look silvery and fresh, no tarnishes from dark blue oxidation, no rust? If one note is out of tune, it would be because of the tuning pin.
7. Is the finishing still intact? No spots marks, scratches, dents, stains? Check the lid and its top, the spine, and underneath the keyboard cover.
8. How are the keys? Old ones probably have ivory keys, these may chip off a bit, which while fine are probably sharp and can mess up the way one plays. (Can dental filling fix this?) But most newer pianos have plastic keys, so this should not be an issue, chips would be strictly cosmetic.
9. How are the three pedals? Does the sustain on the right work? Does the middle pedal (sorry don't know how to spell "saucetonoodle") damp earlier notes other than the one you're playing? Does the left pedal help quiet down and change the tone of the piano to become warmer (compresses a section of the hammer)? Do all the pedals have a resistance?
10. Are the dampers fully functioning, at the right height? They have a black top and white felt bottom part--nothing gone?
11. Test every note on the piano, do all the keys work? When pedaled, do they all dampen or sustain normally, no weird buzz or ringing?
12. Test the action! How do you interact with this piano--subjectively speaking, are you feeling it, does it suit your taste? If in doubt, call a skilled and experienced friend, ask them to play the piano and give feedback on the action. But this also depends on the environment where this piano in--pianos may sound brighter in the showroom with hardwood floors than at home in a carpeted room. Try get the piano from a dealer that has a similar environment to the room you'll have the piano in at home.
1. Is the piano in tune?
2. Are there cracks in the bridge?
3. Are there cracks in the soundboard? Shine a bright flashlight over every inch, and have a friend sit under the piano to check if any light pierces through.
4. Are the hammers intact? Do they look normal, grooves the right depth, felt in place, nothing frayed?
5. Are the strings clean and in good condition?
6. Are the tuning pins normal coloured? Look silvery and fresh, no tarnishes from dark blue oxidation, no rust? If one note is out of tune, it would be because of the tuning pin.
7. Is the finishing still intact? No spots marks, scratches, dents, stains? Check the lid and its top, the spine, and underneath the keyboard cover.
8. How are the keys? Old ones probably have ivory keys, these may chip off a bit, which while fine are probably sharp and can mess up the way one plays. (Can dental filling fix this?) But most newer pianos have plastic keys, so this should not be an issue, chips would be strictly cosmetic.
9. How are the three pedals? Does the sustain on the right work? Does the middle pedal (sorry don't know how to spell "saucetonoodle") damp earlier notes other than the one you're playing? Does the left pedal help quiet down and change the tone of the piano to become warmer (compresses a section of the hammer)? Do all the pedals have a resistance?
10. Are the dampers fully functioning, at the right height? They have a black top and white felt bottom part--nothing gone?
11. Test every note on the piano, do all the keys work? When pedaled, do they all dampen or sustain normally, no weird buzz or ringing?
12. Test the action! How do you interact with this piano--subjectively speaking, are you feeling it, does it suit your taste? If in doubt, call a skilled and experienced friend, ask them to play the piano and give feedback on the action. But this also depends on the environment where this piano in--pianos may sound brighter in the showroom with hardwood floors than at home in a carpeted room. Try get the piano from a dealer that has a similar environment to the room you'll have the piano in at home.
@murdo_mck 6 years ago (edited)
A piano restorer told me to look at the keys from one end, eyes level with the key tops. Variation in the key height shows how much the piano has been used since they were last levelled. Levelling is time consuming so is done seldom or never on cheaper pianos.
If the keys feel 'sloppy' - they wobble from side to side - it is an indication of heavy use. The keys can be fixed by refelting, at substantial cost, but the action will also be heavily worn.
If the keys feel 'sloppy' - they wobble from side to side - it is an indication of heavy use. The keys can be fixed by refelting, at substantial cost, but the action will also be heavily worn.
@recordman555 5 years ago
For used, older pianos, FIRST, check the tuning - look (listen) for abnormalities. Pick out the "bad" wire and put a tuning hammer on it to see if it can be corrected. If that particular wire will not hold tune, you've got pin block issues. Unless it's a high-end (unlikely) piano, it will NOT be worth the effort to replace the pin block. That's an immediate "no sale".
@radiorexandy 8 years ago
What you might have mentioned is that even if the piano is in perfect tune in the showroom it will probably have to be tuned again after it is moved into your home.
@jeffw1267 6 years ago
It would be helpful if you could show a piano with the problems that you state might be present, like missing dampers and rusted strings. We could hear the difference between that and a well-restored piano.
@philsipad 4 years ago (edited)
The quiet pedal : on an upright piano sometimes a quiet tone is not brought about by inserting a felt between the hammers and the strings but rather by moving the hammers closer to the strings so the striking distance and thus velocity is decreased.
@deepenproductions 5 years ago
Don’t even know why I’m watching this I’m picking up a free piano not like I’m gonna return it lol.
@johndutton7322 5 years ago
Not all tuning pins are chrome plated. Many including some Steinway models used “blued” tuning pins. Chrome rusts. The blued pins are the ones that turn darker and also rust.
@HopeHasWarriors 7 years ago
Thank you!!! GREAT advice about the lid on grands - can’t tell you how much dust I normally see in grands and how often they need thorough cleanings😄 I am saving this to share with tuning clients when they’re shopping for a used piano! Very comprehensive - pretty much all of the things that I check in a formal piano evaluation. 😁👍🏽
@FriendlyneighborhoodC8 6 years ago
Just found this video, thanks for posting! Looking at getting a 75 yr old Chickering baby grand and I’ve only ever owned older condition uprights. The key action was so firm my fingers were tired after only a few pieces! This video is making me very glad I have good advisors, I’m taking a tech with me to look at it again, there is so much to look at that I didn’t even think about 😳
@KennethScharf 8 years ago (edited)
Years ago we bought a used upright Piano for a few hundred dollars off of ebay. It was by a local seller, so it didn't cost very much to move. We had it tuned by a rather famous piano tuner, Hi Babit, (he died a few years back) several times while our daughters were living with us, they took lessons for many years. It's a small upright, a spinet I think. Very nice sound (to my ears), though there are some quirks in the action. Still, a very good buy on a student grade piano, and it fit our living room nicely.
@bernardofitzpatrick5403 8 years ago
Man, I really learn't such a lot from this vid. Really informative and practical. Thanks, bro!
@clydebermingham121 5 years ago
Hey James ... Thanks VERY MUCH for Your extensive details with this very vital aspect of knowing about these 12 Things .. x
So very vital 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Thanks 🙏🏽 MUCH 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
So very vital 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Thanks 🙏🏽 MUCH 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
@dadautube 7 years ago
very useful demo!
and i always thought if i don't know everything about all instruments i do know a few things about pianos at least ...
sounds like i wasn't quite right after all ... :-)
and i always thought if i don't know everything about all instruments i do know a few things about pianos at least ...
sounds like i wasn't quite right after all ... :-)
@doremifabrications320 5 years ago
Also, go through the keyboard chromatically with the una corda pedal down. Sometimes it can be out of adjustment or a particular hammer be out of adjustment resulting in the next note (chromatically) getting hit by the hammer resulting in a momentary minor 2nd sounding....not good! I also test for key repetition. You wand to go through at least the middle and top of the compass playing each note repeatedly as fast as you can (use both hands) this will point to worn action parts if you cannot achieve very fast, clear, and consistent note repetition.
Nice video, well done.
Nice video, well done.
12 Things to Know Before Buying a Used Piano
ThePianoforever
145,285 views
If you like music, you might want to check out my second channel "Milan Recording Studios". Feel free to subscribe and hit the bell icon if you want to!
@milanrecordingstudios9042
James takes the process step by step on what we look for when purchasing a used piano. If you use this system for reviewing a piano you will likely be very happy with your purchase.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu1LrpmWwK1ztTvIayRar9w