Loved this conversation. I was first discipled in the Vineyard and so appreciated that key time in my growth as a young Christian.

I would love to see you have John Collins on as a guest.

Wimber was unique.  It was his own spiritual journey that he shared within his time leading the Vinyard, not any man he was following.  Imperfect but genuine.  Growing in grace and the knowledge of Jesus.  He was captivated by the true works of Jesus and increasingly rejected the false.  He rejected Toronto for biblical reasons.  Too many did not listen to his concerns.  So many today follow signs and wonders and not the Word.   Signs follow the Word.  A wicked and adulterous generation seeks signs.

I was in a “Christian” destructive CULT (1989-1994) that was influenced by the Shepherding Movement. Messed me up for decades! Many people were hurt & damaged by the Word of Faith garbage & the pastor of that cult is in prison for life for egregious immorality and sins against children. John Collins’ Leaving the Message helped me to understand the history and get myself deprogrammed. John Collins communicated with me personally (a little nobody) to help me understand what happened. Even if he doesn’t fully understand Wimber, I wouldn’t underestimate the value of his work.

When you are seeking God with a pure heart He will meet you wherever you are. Saved in 1989 in a AOG church where I was filled with the Holy Spirit before I had any teaching or Bible study.(Three days after salvation). Over the years I have attended a variety of churches, AOG, Pentecostal Church of God, AOG, Presbyterian, Vineyard and most recently a non-denominational church. I have grown in my knowledge, received healing in every aspect, physical, emotional and spiritual from every church I attended. I recently found John Collins and have been weighing what I was taught by the Word itself and am currently still in process. I will say that in my opinion, Vineyard most closely resembles what I read in the Bible myself. I have always had a strong relationship with Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit. I have received many healings and have been used by God to bring healing to others, including deliverance when needed. I am grateful for platforms like this where we can exchange experiences and what we have learned through them.

Excellent hearing all this.  I grew up in AOG, attended and heavily involved in a Vineyard church for many years.  Even went to Brownsville as a kid too.  God bless you both.

Thank you for this! I was born again and started to attend an Apostolic Faith Mission church - which then became independent and started to follow the Vinyard model and the Toronto’blessing’ model. After a few years - the relentless chasing after spiritual experiences became exhausting and I struggled to reconcile that with my growing knowledge and understanding of God’s word. Before the internet- I didn’t have words for the discontent in my soul as church was local and isolated. After 8 years of serving passionately- I knew I had to leave - I ended up  in a reformed Baptist church - while I had to get used to the absence of charismatic and Pentecostal presence of God - I fell in love with His word and found a way in for the presence of God in my life through the study of his word. I’ve since been to Bible college and seminary and absolutely love finding Him through Biblical and Theological study. I’m back in a Pentecostal charismatic church (so thankful) but my years in the Baptist church and seminary have given me perspective and wisdom in balancing experiences with His word. Over the years - I’ve been able to understand the theological nuance of what I experienced - my first church has fully embraced NAR and I nervously serve alongside my current pastor watching him navigate his way through charismatic. This conversation has given me such clarity and confirmation of my past experiences. Thank you!!!

I resonate so much with this conversation. I learned a long time ago that I could not live a sustained relationship with Jesus based on revivalism. Revivalism has its place but it’s daily discipleship that is modeled in scripture.

Aw awesome! Have listened to a podcast with this guy chatting with Michael Miller. Excited to listen 👏🏽

I appreciate this particular episode. The stream I come from is Gospel Outreach from Eureka, CA and our church planting apostle was Jim Durkin. There was crossover between The Vineyard and Gospel Outeach in the 80s and up until the mid-90s when Jim Durkin died. Some Gospel Outreach churches folded into the Vineyard at that time.

At the same time, mid-90s, a few people from Gospel Outreach were going to Peter Wagner conferences and getting exposed to the spiritual warfare dominionism from the NAR movement (although they didn’t become “NAR” for a while later). I was exposed to both, and was more comfortable with the Vineyard model because of the emphasis on a face to face relationship with God, rather than all the declarations and 7 mountain stuff. I received a lot of inner healing from vineyard conferences, but the NAR conferences didn’t meet me where I was personally at any given time. I was deeply impacted by the Toronto outpouring. I know it was crazy there sometimes, but what I can say personally was that my encounters there were so intensely personal. The love of God saturated me and I was definitely one of those people who had a hard time getting back to the hotel. It was a holy time, a slice of heaven for me. I was never the same after. I do agree that there were faults on both sides in the rupture between John Wimber and the Toronto leadership. I found that sad.

I completely stopped being involved in the NAR movement in 2016. I couldn’t handle the weaving of Christianity and politics. It was too much for me.

I listen to John Collins, too. He has some real wisdom and he is definitely pointing out some abuses that need to be recognized. But I also agree that he doesn’t understand John Wimber fully. I agree there is a middle road, which is why I appreciate The Minor Prophets podcast so much. Thank you for this particular podcast. ❤

Great discussion.

I so appreciate that they hold space for the sovereignty of God in healing.

This is a great conversation. So healing.

JonMark, when are you fellas gonna cover the “fiasco of John Crowder”?
He has paved the path for nearly all my former friends to leave faith in Jesus of Nazareth by his fake promises and exuberant character.
TY🙏🏿

Found you guys and very thankful

This was an interesting conversation. In my experience back in the 80s I think it’s accurate to observe that J Wimber’s teaching and conferences in the UK opened the ‘door’ to NAR influence.  It led to many unhealthy practices and theology. Thanks guys for taking the time to cover this topic.

@Jon Mark, Nice job keeping the conversation on the level, without over reaching into speculation.  The days in which these older ministers of the 40's & 50's were very difficult times for everyone as information was limited and the World War generation is to be respected for all of their sacrafice.  Be sure to keep the assements of the past cultural/christian movements within the bounderies of our lifetime so as not to bare false witness, the use of language slightly changes over time. Words we commonly use between ourselves is easy to keep together. Just keep thing on track as you are doing. Be blessed.

I grew up in the vineyard church in the 2000s in Alabama. Gosh I loved loved loved the church. I will say the vineyard’s style lead me to IHOPKC lol. I am so thankful for the vineyard church. I remember grabbing the free John Wimber books from the bookstore.

My only pushback with anti-mysticism claims, is that Christian tradition is full men & women these types of encounters. I will say most modern mystical type encounters lack the centering of Jesus or the power of gospel proclamation.

What a beautiful conversation.

Been in the Vineyard since 1990, lived thru the ebbs and flow of the earlier days of a church movement. Thanks for making space for this topic & dialogue. Luke's a great person to have this conversation with. blessings! david welker

I am glad you talked about the five fold and defined the gifts as adjectives. Thats how I have seen it after studying the Spiritual Gifts.
I'd like to read that article you referred to.