hey. good to see you! I'm glad you're here. do you resonate with the thoughts in this video? who's your favorite Spider-Person?

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Hell yeah man.

I took it as “yes, suffering is one of the things that make us who we are. But i am not defined by my suffering, and preventing it in the future is unequivocal good”

It’s funny you draw this connection between the long-accepted Spider-Man story and a common Christian way of thinking, because Spider-Man was created as a very Jewish-coded character, and the Jewish culture is much more focused on challenging accepted beliefs and norms and asking questions and such. So I’m realizing now that this film is actually a fascinating rumination on the Christianization of heroism contrasted with the Jewish culture that was at the root of so many of these characters and even the entire comic book medium.

This is what most excites me going into the next film- this film sets up a real interrogation of the “Superheroes (but Spider-Man especially) as perpetually suffering martyrs” thing that’s been linked to the genre’s mythos forever.
It seems right now like we’re building to a story that finally says “Spider-Man should be allowed to be happy.”

This movie has A LOT in common with The Matrix Reloaded:

1. The main villain wants to destroy all of existence and is created by choices made by the hero in the first movie.

2. There's a plot twist about predestined events in time and the main character being an anomaly who tries to break the cycle by saving his loved ones.

3. The movie ends on a cliffhanger where the main character is trapped in an unknown place and needs to be rescued by his friends.

I think @SarcasticChorus bought up a good point in his video. Uncle Ben didn't die because spiderman has to suffer, Uncle Ben died because of Peter Parker's INACTION. "With great power comes great responsibility" Uncle Ben didn't have to die, had Peter taken action and stopped the mugger, his uncle would still be alive. Miguel and the rest of the spider cult (what I'm calling them) think that constantly suffering is the key to being spiderman. The key to being spiderman is being responsible with the powers you've been given and understanding that there are consequences when you DON'T take action.

Or, at least that's my take away.

I love this video. It's always great to hear people challenging the "spiderman must suffer" narrative

One of the most amazing things about this movie to me is how it serves as a commentary about the history on how Marvel Editorial and slightly uptight fans have treated the spider-man character throughout the years. The first movie was all about the idea of how “everyone can wear the mask”. It’s not about who you are, or the tragic experiences you go through themselves. Rather, it’s about how you turn the tragic experiences which you go to into a positive “pay it forward” mentality to protect those who need protecting. Yet, so many focus on the former, those specific experiences, as what makes the character, and ignore the aspect of the choices you make following those hardships.

You can see this so many times in Peter’s history. This most recent run by Zeb Wells as well as one more day is a clear example where they’re putting Peter through these near character-assassinating circumstances all for the sake of the antiquated status quo that Peter can never be happy and can never truly grow up to find stability. He’s eternally stuck in this weird man-child state where he’s constantly suffering.

What I love about Miles in these movies is that he’s the perfect antithesis to that. To me, these movies are showcasing that he is the apex of what it means to be spider-man. He gained superpowers completely by freak accident. He wasn’t metaphysically destined by reality to become spider man. Hell, he wasn’t even supposed to be spider-man. But he still does it and takes the mantle with absolute stride, fully committing to the responsibility to help others simply just because he has the powers (no matter how hard it gets). He doesn’t fit the editorial status quo, and that’s what makes him so great.

25:16 Or in my case, coming out of the closet and leaving the religion that insisted that self-inflicted suffering in this life through the denial of oneself for was justified for the sake of a reward of an afterlife. The movie and your video got me thinking: the Cannon of suffering in narrative and religious texts can either be a comfort and a source of relatability or it can be weaponized as a dogma to rationalize abuse. "We all feel pain" turns to "you are meant to feel this pain."

While I know you're probably not a comics guy (and to be perfectly clear that doesn't make anyone less of a "true" Spider-Man fan) Miles' whole struggle of having to rebel against what a higher force (usually Marvel Editorial) says that his life has to be is so so so compelling as someone who's read comics for years and usually enjoys most the one's that try to push forward and create a new definition for what Spider-Man can be in spite of the constant pushback from higher-ups who say he has to be this one particular thing.

I like how the writers approached the often confusing and difficult (in terms of creating and writing) nature of what’s considered “canon.”

I think you've put it into words the best way possible, of how some bad things can lead to good things. I never knew why Miguel's echoing words in the abstract chase scene made me bawl my eyes out, until you've put that message into words; Miguel's opposing aura weren't what made me shudder and cry, it was what he was saying, "you're a mistake" "you're never supposed to be x" *"everywhere you go, you don't belong"*. I've always been told that my birth was unplanned, but from that struggle, my mother's raised herself and us into a pretty well-off life. I love where we are right now, and you're words really put a neat bow in all this, that I thank you.

My favorite Spiderman is Spider-Punk, "It's a metaphor for capitalism" made me laugh way harder than it should have.

This just more so convinces me that Tom, Tobey and Andrew would A HUNDRED PERCENT be team free will. There's a REASON why fate vs free will stories are SO popular-the idea that we're just figuring this sht out on our own is terrifying, so you know, I can understand why people would look to Miguel as a way of like "oh okay so there's reason why things are the way they are" BUT it's almost always the younger generation that comes in and goes "FCK. THAT." and fights for their own story to be told. It's good drama.

I think all of the Spidermen that have been through incredibly traumatizing things latch onto Miguel’s idea that it is part of the “canon” because they want to give their trauma meaning. They want to say “yes, x person died, but it helped me become the person that I am,” instead of maybe thinking that they have persevered and become a good person DESPITE their horrible experiences. the core of being a spiderperson is that they get hit and they always get up, and Miguel hyperfocused on the part where they get hit, instead of the “getting up” part. The trauma was never needed, they just needed to be a person who has the motivation to put on the mask and keep it on.

Best Spider-Person was easily the little plush guy in background of the big chase. Theres just a lil Spider-Plushie chasing Miles and I love him.

Marvel editorial’s response to this would be “Spider-Man’s life can be nothing but suffering, there is no positive outcome” (reference to the current state of Spider-Man - particularly Peter Parker comics) I loved this video, thanks for sharing your response

wild the hear you say that into the spiderverse didnt hit you emotionally, i would give anything to feel the same high i felt watching the leap of faith scene in theatres for the first time. that mix of anxiety, exhilaration, and pride has only been matched by a literal rollercoaster.

Beautifully articulated man

"The hands that guide the hands" -oof that line haunted me! Was not expecting God to show up in a summer blockbuster of all places!!!