Peter Sellis was the first product manager at Snapchat, where he spent seven years building one of the most beloved consumer products in history. He went on to serve as Head of Product at Discord, where he helped drive some of the fastest user growth the platform had seen. Having left his role at Discord, he gets to be especially real and unfiltered — nothing to promote, no PR, no comms team.

In our in-depth conversation, we discuss:
1. Why Peter designs teams like . . . terrorist organizations
2. What it was really like to manage Nikita Bier
3. Why the median PM is so bad
4. Why Snapchat’s ads business never reached its potential
5. Why growth almost always comes from the core product
6. Peter’s three “oxymorons” of great product management

Brought to you by:
WorkOS—Make your app enterprise-ready, with SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and more: https://workos.com/lenny
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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/90...
Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2...
Highlights: https://lennyspodcast.com/mostreplaye...

Where to find Peter Sellis:
• X: https://x.com/petersellis
• LinkedIn: LinkedIn: disgruntled
• Website: https://pjs.lol

Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: Twitter: lennysan
• LinkedIn: LinkedIn: lennyrachitsky

In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Introduction
(02:48) Why Peter avoided podcasts until now
(05:44) Designing teams like terrorist organizations
(10:35) Cult versus terrorist org: the key distinction
(11:19) Managing Nikita Bier
(12:56) Building orgs that handle spiky talent
(15:16) Why the median PM is probably bad
(18:28) Is the PM profession getting better?
(20:49) Snap’s three ads monetization challenges
(25:03) Snap’s underrated product track record
(27:57) Systems thinking
(32:19) Instagram copying Snapchat’s worst features
(33:32) Software moats
(35:27) Taste, museum curators, and the art of saying no
(40:05) OpenAI, ads, and the trust auction mechanism
(46:25) Counterintuitive lesson: ride your best people hard
(50:13) Why collaboration is often overrated
(50:50) Growth lives in the core product
(57:50) When to bet on something genuinely new
(01:02:18) SpaceX and sunsetting the Falcon 9
(01:07:01) Ambition as a learnable muscle
(01:10:26) Long-term greedy: the ads philosophy
(01:13:36) The Core Product Value framework
(01:16:33) The three oxymorons of a great PM
(01:20:29) Contrarian corner
(01:26:00) Lightning round and final thoughts

Referenced:
• Discord: https://discord.com
• Snap: https://www.snap.com
• Nikita Bier on X: https://x.com/nikitabier
• How to consistently go viral: Nikita Bier’s playbook for winning at consumer apps (co-founder of TBH, Gas, advisor, investor): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ho...
• Liam Neeson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Ne...
• Phil Jackson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Ja...
• This CPO regrets that product management exists | Tom Verrilli (CPO of Whatnot): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/th...
• Why Netflix is betting on systems thinkers—not specialists—in the AI era | Elizabeth Stone (CPTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ne...
• Five whys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_whys
• Jay Wright Forrester: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Wri...
• System dynamics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_...
• Adam Mosseri: AI is a tailwind for authenticity: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ad...
• Eric Seufert on X: https://x.com/eric_seufert
• Vickrey–Clarke–Groves mechanism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey...
• Peter principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_p...
• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com
• SpaceX: https://www.spacex.com
...References continued at:

Recommended books:
• Thinking in Systems: A Primer: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Syste...
• The Innovator’s Dilemma: The Revolutionary Book That Will Change the Way You Do Business: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062060244
• How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594632332
• When Genius Failed: The Rise and Fall of Long-Term Capital Management: https://www.amazon.com/When-Genius-Fa...
• Einstein’s Dreams: https://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Drea...

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/.
For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.